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Discussion The Amuni

edeba

Well-Known Member
Me! I want more space for more factories! I do NOT want to reduce. :)

If the devs gave each player 10 free expansions tomorrow (and map grids to place them) the only change to the game would be that everyone would fill it with factories and get ~2-3K more points in the tournament, and then 2 months later they would complain about space issues again.
 

DeletedUser2003

Guest
I find many players overbuild factories, and refuse to reduce the number they have even when they upgrade them.
Soggy Soggy...this is how some people enjoy playing, watching what they have built continue to grow, not being FORCED to destroy it to play the game the way the devs seem to dictate they want the game played. You're asking the devs to bring back your choices, and that's much the same as what many players are asking, just about a different aspect of the game. You enjoy the challenge of playing your way and perhaps don't feel the same way about the space-lock. But that doesn't mean the players who really hate that aspect of the game can't wish the devs would give them back their choices too.. :oops:
If the devs gave each player 10 free expansions tomorrow (and map grids to place them) the only change to the game would be that everyone would fill it with factories and get ~2-3K more points in the tournament, and then 2 months later they would complain about space issues again.
And this? Ok...but...no one seems to be asking for 10 free expansions. Just the opportunity to win them the way they've always been able to win them. By researching or by scouting and conquering. My scouts are over 80 hours, I can't fight and win those provs, and it costs beaucoup goods to negotiate them. I only conquer what I've scouted now for events, because, well, why else would I bother? That's a significant part of the game that is just eliminated by a hard cap on province expansions, and I don't see why the request to add 1 more expansion to the tech tree or have that 457 cap be increased seems like an unreasonable request. I personally feel that players who have been playing long enough to have scouted and conquered 457 provinces, have stuck with the game (when many quit for whatever reason), and still want to continue to play, just might deserve a little reward every now and then. Why not, eh..? ;):D:p
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
no one seems to be asking for 10 free expansions.
Where does it end though? They are adding an entire row, and no one seems satisfied, even the old school players who grabbed 32 "cheap" expansions immediately turned and asked "what about map clearing?"
The fact that a city can succeed with 30 fewer expansions, and without the advantage of more efficient magic buildings shows to me that no matter where the line was drawn, the same segment of players(or playstyle if you prefer) simply cannot be satisfied.
I personally feel that players who have been playing long enough to have scouted and conquered 457 provinces, have stuck with the game (when many quit for whatever reason), and still want to continue to play, just might deserve a little reward every now and then. Why not, eh..? ;):D:p
I agree, maybe something more than 10 provinces per though. like a lot more, maybe 15,20,25 etc
 
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SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Adding a row, but no way of winning them, only buying them, seems to be a big part of the complaint, no?
Is it? I actually haven't seen posts from non-premium-maxed players complaining;)

Just maxed players with 6+ expansions "in the bank" not being overjoyed at the new row since they can't 100% fill it.

It's the same cycle twice now
1. The grid is too small, I have more expansions to place (not happy)
2. The grid increases, but it's not possible to fill the same day. (not happy)
3. More expansions are earned/purchasable but grid is now too small (not happy)
Repeat from #1

I may have missed one, but it seems to me that every time some one complains about space issues, they have 132 expansions already.
 
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DeletedUser2003

Guest
I actually haven't seen posts from non-premium-maxed players complaining;)
Well, the only player that I know for sure IS a premium player is your pal JPS because he is so proud of it, that he has to let us know with every post. Other than that, I don't have any idea about the people who post and their spending habits. I just feel that as everything in the game gets bigger every chapter EXCEPT for the land to build it on, that reminds me too much of RL, the cost of living, and my paycheck. Only one of them seems to be not growing with the rate of everything else lol :p
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I'm super nosey, so I've pretty much seen every single poster's city (via elvenstats):oops:
I just feel that as everything in the game gets bigger every chapter EXCEPT for the land to build it on
Only sort of. Buildings also produce way more as they grow, and costs do not keep pace at all, meaning you can easily drop 1/3 of your factories every time that they change shape and still come out ahead. I dunno, maybe some players feel 7 buildings look prettier than 5?
, that reminds me too much of RL, the cost of living, and my paycheck.
This brings me back to my T3 example When you unlock level 23 T3, they make 67% more.
Lemme ask you this: Assuming you already make enough money to buy everything you want, If you got a 50% raise every year, and prices stayed pretty much the same each year, how many years would you work until you started cutting back on hours?:p
(I bet my lazy ass has a lower number than your answer)
 
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Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
I find many players overbuild factories, and refuse to reduce the number they have even when they upgrade them.
For example how many planks, steel, and marble are needed for chapter 13? Zero. No quests ask for it, zero T1 tech costs, and if you have 457 provinces cleared then nothing there either. Just feeding your T4 (of which you only need 500K) and tournaments.

I pointed this out to another player months ago that the upgrade to level 23 T3 increases production by a whopping 67%, but did they reduce the number of factories? Nope, gotta have 7 because....reasons.
Only sort of. Buildings also produce way more as they grow, and costs do not keep pace at all, meaning you can easily drop 1/3 of your factories every time that they change shape and still come out ahead. I dunno, maybe some players feel 7 buildings look prettier than 5?
Do you realize that catering costs in tournaments rises faster than your production does? You have 4 factory upgrades each 3 chapters but at the same time you have 9 mandatory squad size upgrades. Maybe if you are at the end of research tree for some time and your wonders are all at high levels this is not so obvious, but if you're still catching like me (I'm in Halfings) this is a major issue for tournamets.

Is it? I actually haven't seen posts from non-premium-maxed players complaining;).
Maybe majority of them doesn't complaint on forums and simply quits the game?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Only sort of. Buildings also produce way more as they grow, and costs do not keep pace at all, meaning you can easily drop 1/3 of your factories every time that they change shape and still come out ahead. I dunno, maybe some players feel 7 buildings look prettier than 5?

You keep forgetting about tournaments for which it is impossible to train the amount of units needed and you therefore have to cater a ridiculous amount of goods. You still have to upgrade residences, which also costs goods.
And there's also the events, asking you to win confrontations. If you have already conquered 500+ provinces, there's no other option left than catering because the confrontations are no longer winnable (at least not for me on live). Even in the story quests for the Amini we get non-declineable quests asking us to scout provincies and complete provinces. This is utterly ridiculous. I have no need for more conquered provinces because of the cap on expansions.

The devs pushed us into building many AWs because they said those would become really important. But now we will not get enough space to fit everything together, except when you're willing to pay hard money at an idiotic price for a small piece of space. Elvenar was suppose to be a free-browser game, with the possibility to pay real money for something extra. Now it's starting to look more and more that if you stuck with it for several years, you need to pay to continue, destroy half you city or quit the game :(
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Do you realize that catering costs in tournaments rises faster than your production does? You have 4 factory upgrades each 3 chapters but at the same time you have 9 mandatory squad size upgrades.
If a player was running a non-military setup, I guess this might be true, but I see these big 132 expansions players all seem to have military wonders and multiple armories, so catering isn't the whole story. How many barracks upgrades during those chapters?
You keep forgetting about tournaments for which it is impossible to train the amount of units needed
What do you mean by "needed"?
Needed for what? 1600 points in the tournament? I autofight 99% of the tournament and make enough troops for well over 2,000 points. Nothing impressive for wonders either, all level 6, just starting to upgrade past that.
If for some reason you didn't skip any SS techs, then it would be harder, but I wouldn't say impossible, and certainly not to the point where you need 7 of each factory on top of autofighting.
 
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SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Maybe if you are at the end of research tree for some time and your wonders are all at high levels this is not so obvious, but if you're still catching like me (I'm in Halfings) this is a major issue for tournamets.
I'm new to being stuck at the end on Live, and I've never hit the end on Beta.
The ultimate prize in the tournament requires a FS to get 40,000 points. This breaks down to 1600 points per player. If you are consistently getting more than double that, you are crushing it, and reaching/maintaining such a point should be a challenge.
 
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Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@SoggyShorts 1600 is the average score for a member of full fellowship. For every member who does less points there needs to be someone who does more than 1600. I'm one of those who does more - my average is about 3000 points - and I'm doing it by combination of autofights (full 24h/day army production) and cattering. I would gladly to do it just by army, but that would require radical boost of unit production (like non-shared queue of the army producting buildings).
I do have the first two non-mandatory squad size upgrades, as a newbie I was researching everything before I started to read forum and realized negative effect of this technology.
I'm simply pointing out that by progressing to higher chapter, it is increasingly difficult just to maintain your results. It was not so long ago when I didn't needed to use spells for my factories. Now I need to use them regularly.
The lack of non-premium expansions in the last chapters is bad itself, but in combination with mandatory squad size upgrade it's slowly killing tournaments.
In one of your previous comments you have used the word whopping for increased production of manufactory. But if you add the mandatory squad size upgrades to the equation the word gets changed from whopping to insufficient.
Squad size upgrade mechanics is simply broken for tournaments - the more of them you research the more your ability to catter in tournaments gets destroyed because it rises cattering costs much faster than your production rises (and if you want to maintain the ability, you actualy need more manufactories, not less). If I have stayed in the same chapter (not researching any additional squad size upgrade) I would be fine and have no problems with maintaining (or even increasing) my score.
But maybe you think it's all right, that with each new chapter tournament gets closer to the final stage, when only FAs with low chapter tournamet cities or FAs with large number of heavy diamond cities will be able to achieve the 10th reward.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
1600 is the average score for a member of full fellowship. For every member who does less points there needs to be someone who does more than 1600.
Yes, I'm aware of how averages are calculated;) I'm saying that being able to cover someone who does zero shouldn't be easy or sustainable.
In one of your previous comments you have used the word whopping for increased production of manufactory. But if you add the mandatory squad size upgrades to the equation the word gets changed from whopping to insufficient.
But when you also factor in that techs cost far less T1,2,3 as you progress, it swings back the other way at least a little.
The next race techs ask for
400K T3
500K T4 (with MM spells that's under 250K T1)
225K T5 (with MM spells that's under 100K T2)
This is under a weeks production for a guest race that will take over 80 days to complete.
Also those complaining are often over 457 cleared, so their need for goods drops drastically there as well. (a little stash for events "solve x encounters" is all you need)
Squad size upgrade mechanics is simply broken for tournaments
There's no arguing against this. It's a garbage mechanic and I've railed against it since forever. Even though I'm one who skipped all SS techs since dwarves I still feel it is crap.
But maybe you think it's all right, that with each new chapter tournament gets closer to the final stage, when only FAs with low chapter tournamet cities or FAs with large number of heavy diamond cities will be able to achieve the 10th reward.
Please try to keep in mind the context of my position. I am arguing that there is enough room in a 132+ expansion city to do absolutely everything you need to in this game and this is proven by players with fewer expansions who do everything those players do in the same amount of time.
(e.g. I was one of the first 50 players worldwide to complete Elementals, and did it with 1 premium expansion I got from earned diamonds)
~30 extra expansions should really be enough to add whatever flavour you want to your city.

As for how difficult it is/should be to get 10 chests, I think inno actually has it right (except for it being based off SS techs the way it is)
Any active player focused on tournaments should be able to do 1000+ points regularly, and that means during a "push" week their FS could get 10 chests.
A focused and determined FS should be able to get 10 chests if they find enough like minded players each week, and I believe such is currently the case.

BTW chapter 13 gives +40% training speed via barracks upgrades, and will be giving me +20% SS size, so I'll certainly be doing better in tournaments by chapter end.
 
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Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@SoggyShorts My arguments are more or less all about tournament. I know that just to be able to go through the research I need less than I have. If I didn't care about tournaments I could simply delete all my military wonders and buildings and I would have plenty of free space (my beta city will do fine this way). But I do care. I'm simply afraid that over time my results will get worse by progressing through new chapters. It might be temporary or not - I don't know, I'm not there yet and I still have some strategies left for maintaining my tournament results (and hopefully having enough space for bigger buildings. My last resort strategy is lowering space for guest races. And I still have other options left including maintaining my overscouting (at least until I hit the limit during next year)).
Btw in my case I do have 5T1,4T2,5T3 manufactories.
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
@SoggyShorts My arguments are more or less all about tournament. I know that just to be able to go through the research I need less than I have. If I didn't care about tournaments I could simply delete all my military wonders and buildings and I would have plenty of free space (my beta city will do fine this way). But I do care. I'm simply afraid that over time my results will get worse by progressing through new chapters. It might be temporary or not - I don't know, I'm not there yet and I still have some strategies left for maintaining my tournament results (and hopefully having enough space for bigger buildings. My last resort strategy is lowering space for guest races. And I still have other options left including maintaining my overscouting (at least until I hit the limit during next year)).
Btw in my case I do have 5T1,4T2,5T3 manufactories.

my solution to this was to stop doing research, so i could keep enjoying tournaments.
But now my account is under investigation for pushing, seems like stopping in research is not really allowed... :)
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
this is totally offtopic so i didnt want to reply on it anymore, but ofcourse i was giving my kp's away, since i wasnt doing anything on researchtree (and that is ofcourse the main reason for the investigation). And Primrose, im pretty sure you're not on my live server(where i have the small account for tournament fun), so that cant happen
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
BTW chapter 13 gives +40% training speed via barracks upgrades, and will be giving me +20% SS size, so I'll certainly be doing better in tournaments by chapter end.
And in chapter after that your barracks production stays the same while there will be another 3 mandatory SS upgrades...
So in best case scenario your army production will just keep pace with squad size upgrades for those 2 chapters together (not counting increase through wonders).

And one additional note about broken mechanics of squad size upgrade.
While we both agree that it is broken, our main reasons are probably different.
I suppose your main reason is that it gives unfair disadvantage for those who research non-mandatory squad size upgrades (correct me if I'm assuming it wrong),
while I agree with that, my main point is, that it rises tournament cattering costs faster than production of manufactories rises.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
While we both agree that it is broken, our main reasons are probably different.
No, you got it right. I feel there should not be an advantage to skipping techs, or if there is one, it shouldn't be so massively unbalanced.
As for catering outpacing production, I'm on the fence about that. Maybe it should get harder to do tournaments as you get closer to "maxing out"-- there's nothing else to do in the game, so by focusing on tournament wonders you should be able to stay ahead of the curve. maybe.
 
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