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Knowledge Sharing Fellowship Perks

edeba

Well-Known Member
This new feature seems really lovely. Not yet in a fellowship in beta and haven't seen it working but is it possible to add an optional wonder administrator function of selecting which wonder to work on under the perks window and create a one click navigation to that wonder?
I've seen enough circular messages where someone writes the wrong person or wrong wonder.
Just partner with someone, pick an AW that you aren't planning on leveling for a month or two and exchange with that person... super easy...
 

DeletedUser3930

Guest
Just partner with someone, pick an AW that you aren't planning on leveling for a month or two and exchange with that person... super easy...
Not quite sure how that eliminates the need for circular messages, multiple clicks and writing the wrong person down in fellowships that have 20+ members working on 1 wonder. But it's a good suggestion for a two person fellowship.

But I love the feature and can't wait to see more of these perks.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Not quite sure how that eliminates the need for circular messages, multiple clicks and writing the wrong person down in fellowships that have 20+ members working on 1 wonder. But it's a good suggestion for a two person fellowship.

But I love the feature and can't wait to see more of these perks.
Partnering with someone means you and someone else agree to put the knowledge sharing into each other's AW until an agreed time/circumstance. I completely fail to understand how you would need any kind of message system to do this, or any reason that it would limited to a two person FS. Seems to me that a full FS would be able to have up 12 partnerships for exchanging KP. It takes 4 clicks to put the kp into her AW and I guess if she was on the second or 3rd page it would take 5.

I am not in a 2 person fellowship and exchanching with another member of my FS. We've agreed to do this until the first chest is full and then we'll decide what to do next.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
I am not in a 2 person fellowship and exchanching with another member of my FS. We've agreed to do this until the first chest is full and then we'll decide what to do next.
Since in Net0, you put in ~80% of the cost in your AW, you do this while doing your part before putting it in the Net0 program and you will have a chest already taken. Of course you could continue to a higher kp chest if it will take a while to finish your part. This is the only way I've seen/thought of that lets it work smoothly-ish with Net0. This isn't perfect. No plan is. Even if the chest isn't filled by your partner when you are ready to put in in the program, you can inform them you are ready and they can add in a few AW KP or normal KP to finish the chest just like they would in the program. Essentially you have a Net0 chest with another player, then the FS for the rest of the Net0 chests.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Since in Net0, you put in ~80% of the cost in your AW, you do this while doing your part before putting it in the Net0 program and you will have a chest already taken. Of course you could continue to a higher kp chest if it will take a while to finish your part. This is the only way I've seen/thought of that lets it work smoothly-ish with Net0. This isn't perfect. No plan is. Even if the chest isn't filled by your partner when you are ready to put in in the program, you can inform them you are ready and they can add in a few AW KP or normal KP to finish the chest just like they would in the program. Essentially you have a Net0 chest with another player, then the FS for the rest of the Net0 chests.
That's exactly what we are doing. Omg, this perks thing has really made me laugh a few times. I've now finished two AW levels since our FS got our first level for the kp perks, so we have 7kp each that we've exchange, and it just makes me laugh every time I look at that pitiful amount and watch my AW I'm working on finish in about a week. The first AW only needed a few if the kp from last week's tournament, which also gave us the experience points for the kp perk. Tomorrow we should be able to level to 2kp/day and that might seem a little less pathetic, lol.
 

DeletedUser3930

Guest
I am not in a 2 person fellowship and exchanching with another member of my FS. We've agreed to do this until the first chest is full and then we'll decide what to do next.
Do you leave chests on the table? I'm trying to understand what you're doing here.
two people fill each others to a point where no one can take the top chest? and then write a circular message there are chests left?

I've been in all kinds of fellowships, a single fellowship, a 2 person one, several full ones, half full ones and everyone does something different, except I've never seen one with this net0 which seems counterintuitive to me. If people are leveling the same wonders its the exact same amount of kp for everyone. Those kps are better spent getting chests.
Every level 2 golden abyss costs 109 kps to level - it's the same for everyone.
 
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edeba

Well-Known Member
Do you leave chests on the table? I'm trying to understand what you're doing here.
two people fill each others to a point where no one can take the top chest? and then write a circular message there are chests left?

I've been in all kinds of fellowships, a single fellowship, a 2 person one, several full ones, half full ones and everyone does something different, except I've never seen one with this net0 which seems counterintuitive to me. If people are leveling the same wonders its the exact same amount of kp for everyone. Those kps are better spent getting chests.
Every level 2 golden abyss costs 109 kps to level - it's the same for everyone.
We have a net zero system, so FS member fill the chests and when the AW if finished they get their kp back. You fill in the rest of your own AW. So to do this in net zero I just partnered with someone and we picked an AW that we are putting our knowledge kp into until we fill the chest, and then we will put it into the system to finish it or and you can switch to that at any time. and the rest of the FS will come in and fill the rest of the chests. We have one thread for AW and all you do is put in the name of the AW you are working on and the FS members fill the chests. We also have a spreadsheet because sometimes two people go to fill a chest at the same time, so you put which chest you are taking on the sheet and then fill it. Usually when I go to the spreadsheet I look at all of the AW FS members are working on and I will fill as many chests as I can, so that way you aren't going to the spreadsheet every time some says which AW they are working on. And if you have your kp into the AW and it is just waiting for chests, we just add a message, 2 chest or 3 chest left, waiting to finish and people do those ones right away.
A lot of people at first think they are losing something, because when you put all of you kp into other people's AW and get equal being put into your AW the chest show up and you have a sense that you are getting xxkp chests for "nothing," and it is a bonus. The difference is if it is 500kp AW level you will put 500kp into the threads to get your AW filled and you need to get 100kp back from those chests to match the net zero system where you'd put in 400kp and the FS would fill chests that total 100kp. An FS member that puts kp into your AW gets 100% of what they put in back, so it is just a short term kp loan to fill the chests until the AW is finished.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
And with netzero can choose which FS chests to fill, so if I've just leveled an AW and and just starting one and I just got my tournament kp, I'll fill the big chests for FS members because I'm going to get my kp back before I have enough in mine, but if mine is close to leveling and I want to put as many kp as possible in mine to I can get it leveled sooner, I will grab 5kp chests or just let others grab them.
 

DeletedUser3930

Guest
Okay Edeba, a bit confusing what you’re doing but definitely showing a need for some administrative functions. You’re using spreadsheets and circular messages.

I do see this a bit different, the value for me is team work and getting my wonder leveled and the value that wonder has to my city. So what is more important, having a wonder leveled with the benefits it provides or getting back your kps?

You understand this Edeba, it’s a rhetorical question. I think I understand why you went to the a net0 program, to give perceived value to helping. When the value is actually getting your wonder leveled and it will be done quickly if all are helping each other.

Imho, this is where people need to change their mind set.

The extra 1 to 5 kps is a bonus we have never had and would have loved to had seen this oh about 3 years ago. It teaches teamwork and it’s not 1 of your 24 kps you get per day. Don’t look at it as 1 day but over a month, over a year. It adds up. It’s why I love the Tome of Secrets. Especially for hitting dwarves with the extra supplies for scouting.

Don’t want to get too off topic. The feature is fabulous for large fellowships. And not one that would be very good (obviously) for a single person fellowship and better to pick a different perk.
 
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maxiqbert

Well-Known Member
Okay Edeba, a bit confusing what you’re doing but definitely showing a need for some administrative functions. You’re using spreadsheets and circular messages.

I do see this a bit different, the value for me is team work and getting my wonder leveled and the value that wonder has to my city. So what is more important, having a wonder leveled with the benefits it provides or getting back your kps?

You understand this Edeba, it’s a rhetorical question. I think I understand why you went to the a net0 program, to give perceived value to helping. When the value is actually getting your wonder leveled and it will be done quickly if all are helping each other.

Imho, this is where people need to change their mind set.

The extra 1 to 5 kps is a bonus we have never had and would have loved to had seen this oh about 3 years ago. It teaches teamwork and it’s not 1 of your 24 kps you get per day. Don’t look at it as 1 day but over a month, over a year. It adds up. It’s why I love the Tome of Secrets. Especially for hitting dwarves with the extra supplies for scouting.

Don’t want to get too off topic. The feature is fabulous for large fellowships. And not one that would be very good (obviously) for a single person fellowship and better to pick a different perk.
single person fellowships won't have loads of perks anyway
edit :IMHO for very small FS, the archives are a lot more important
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Okay Edeba, a bit confusing what you’re doing but definitely showing a need for some administrative functions. You’re using spreadsheets and circular messages.

I do see this a bit different, the value for me is team work and getting my wonder leveled and the value that wonder has to my city. So what is more important, having a wonder leveled with the benefits it provides or getting back your kps?

You understand this Edeba, it’s a rhetorical question. I think I understand why you went to the a net0 program, to give perceived value to helping. When the value is actually getting your wonder leveled and it will be done quickly if all are helping each other.

Imho, this is where people need to change their mind set.

The extra 1 to 5 kps is a bonus we have never had and would have loved to had seen this oh about 3 years ago. It teaches teamwork and it’s not 1 of your 24 kps you get per day. Don’t look at it as 1 day but over a month, over a year. It adds up. It’s why I love the Tome of Secrets. Especially for hitting dwarves with the extra supplies for scouting.

Don’t want to get too off topic. The feature is fabulous for large fellowships. And not one that would be very good (obviously) for a single person fellowship and better to pick a different perk.
I don't know what you mean by circular messages, but I interpret that to be you look at the message of the person before you, put your wishes, and the person after responses. There is NONE of that crap and you do NetZero to get away from it.

By your response, you don't get it all and I'm just going to leave it at that at this point.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
I'll give a shot at explaining how Net0 works. This is off topic, but with it being mentioned several times, it might be helpful for people to understand basically how it works. Hopefully, I won't shoot my foot off. ;)

The purpose of any AW program is to use the KP in the chest to reduce how much an AW will cost the owner. Secondary is for people to get the rune shards they need. If you subtract the amount of KP given in the chest for an AW, you are left with about 80% of its cost for the owner to contribute. The argument of which is best program is not the point here. It is to explain how Net0 performs. There are slight variations between how one FS does it compared to another. I'm using the way we do it in my live FS. I will not try to explain how things are dealt with when there are mistakes. There will be some, but they are easily handled when members cooperate with each other.

As an AW is completed, there is no record kept. There isn't a manager of the program, although, it is good to have some members facilitate handling mistakes. Mistakes decrease rapidly as people get used to the system and most people began to help others with any problems. The spreadsheet is controlled cooperatively by the members. When the owner has partially filled their part of an AW (my FS suggest around 75%) they add their name, the AW's name and it's level to the SS using drop down menus. The owner also adds how much they have put in the AW. The SS then shows the cost of the AW, how much the owner needs to put in, what percentage of the owner's part they have added and what is in each chest, including the number of rune shards. As the owner adds more, the SS updates the percentage they still have to contribute. FS members mark a chest as theirs using a drop down menu for their name and put that amount in the AW immediately. It should not take more than a day or two for the owner to finish their part. After all, the other members are helping reduce the cost and you don't want to tie up their KP from other uses. Usually, the AW fills within a day, sometimes two or just a few minutes when a tourney ends. When the AW is completed, the owner removes it from the SS and upgrades it.

There is an in-game message. When the owner adds their AW to the SS, they put it's name in the in-game message. Sometimes, when there is just a chest or two left and the owner has put in all their required kp, they add to the message that info. Normally the message is only updated once for each AW and maybe second time every now and then.
 

The Fairy

Well-Known Member
I have started using net zero in one of my fs, and we don't have a spreadsheet. All we have are 2 in-game messages, one where the owners can add their wonders when they are ready for donations and one to handle any mistakes that may happen.
 

DeletedUser3930

Guest
Okay so let me see if I have this right, thought I understood what you’re doing but perhaps I don’t.

Let’s take a golden abyss level 1 to level 2
Costs 109 KPS to upgrade
Net0 the owner adds 89 kps
Then sends out a fellowship wide message there are 4 chests available 5 kp each for the chest prizes (in game message that goes to everyone and if someone responds it again goes to everyone – that’s what I was calling a circular message)

Fellowships with the 5kp perk it costs nothing and you gain 5 kps to get the 4 remaining chests,
If you don’t have the 5 kp perk, it costs you nothing to add 5 kp get back the 5kp prize

The net0 is for the fellowship members to get back their kps for helping others versus the owner getting back their kps for filling their own wonders?



As an example of teams, with the owner not adding to their wonder. Using the same level 1 to 2 Golden Abyss and taking 5 days to upgrade each one.

Member A you add 59 kps to get the top chest. 5 kps from the perk and 5 kps back from the chest, it cost you 49 kps to get the chest and a rune.

Member B – you add 20 for the 2nd chest. You’ll get 5 kps back + the 5 kp perk and it cost you 10 kps

Member C – you add 15 kps for the 3rd chest – It cost you 5 kps with the chest and 5 kp perk

Member D – you add 10 kps for the 4th chest – it costs you nothing with prize and 5kp perk

Member E – you add 5 kps it costs you nothing with the 5k perk

ssaw.JPG


Net0 it costs you 89 kps to level your wonder
With teams with the 5kp perk, it costs each person 64 kps to help with 5 wonders and less if there are more people helping
Teams without the 5kp perk the cost is 89 kps (thanks Yogi Dave for catching that) and less if there are more people helping
This is what I meant that everyone's wonder costs is the same exact amount.

Ooo what are archives?
 
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Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
There are many AW program methods that have been proposed and used. Net0 is just one of them. Which one to use is not the issue, nor one I wish to get into. I was explaining how Net0 works without perks. The discussion about Net0 had been about how to the addition of perks disrupts a main feature of the method. Net0 decoupled the filling of an AW from the filling of any other, these perks make it impossible to keep it in it's pure form.

The example you gave of 6 members upgrading 6 GAs does end up with it costing each of the 6 players 64kp when 25kp of perks are added. But, it can't work if it's only 1 GA being filled, just as Net0 doesn't work. However, there is a math error in your statement that each AW would cost 84kp without perks. Since the perks reduced the cost by 25kp, that has to be added back in to the cost of the AW. 64 plus 25 takes the amount back up to 89, not 84.

To go any farther with this begins to delve into which method is better than another and how much coordination is required to keep it fair. The discussion will quickly devolve into subjective judgements about the various pros and cons of each method. They all have some of each. Those of us who use Net0 are trying to figure out how to solve the change perks bring while keeping certain aspects of the Net0 method. It will have to evolve into a new form since it simply doesn't work in it's pure form. Filling of AWs using perks will have to be coupled to the filling of other AWs, which is a bummer to use using Net0.
 

Ibison2

Well-Known Member
Seriously, I'm just seeing whining that they are giving away more free stuff for playing the way you play anyways because it messes with how you do things. Therefore it needs to be changed, screw how anyone else plays.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@Ibison2 If you don't exchange your KPs with anyone and just invest your KPs into your own wonders, this perk gives you nothing. So no need to invest until you have maxed (or high enough) archive perks.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
But maximum increase in military speed from any AW on troop production is 46%. You get 46% increase in troop size with 153 AW levels, but you need 105 AW levels to give you that 46% increase in military speed.

153 is larger than 105, so this is, by definition, not regressive. Costly, yes, but not regressive.
 
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