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Discussion Fellowship Adventures

galrond

Well-Known Member
Sigh. If you're going to jump in when I'm responding to karvest at least follow the thread of the conversation:

S> bracelets suck because they are a bottleneck since you can make so few of them compared to the other badges.
K> It's fine, everyone needs more T1 now because of tournament changes
S> I don't, and many other players have also not seen an increase in T1 requirements because they are not 1600+ point players.

That's it really. I still think that making the use of mass teleports/timers/diamonds the only viable ways to keep bracelet production in line with the production levels of other badges is crap, and I've seen nothing that changes my mind.
I don´t disagree, that bracelets suck because they´re a bottleneck.
I think INNO should include T2 and T3, and reduce amount demanded.
It´s (as you say) in no way ok, that you have to teleport away big chunks of your city and/or use exessive amounts of timeboosters and/or productionboosters to make something you don´t need.
I DO think the problem is bigger, when it comes to VV-badges. The things you can produce is mostly irrelevant, overprized or just plain junk. This goes for all of my cities. The amounts of VV you get from production differs so much, that it´s very difficult to avoid substansial waste. I think ppl would feel more inclined to use diamonds to get these badges. I could be wrong.
But the fact VV-badges really sucks, doesn´t make the bracelets ok. Far from ok. INNO should fix both.
If you disagree (rightfully) with @Karvest , that "everyone" needs increased amounts of T1. Then write that. Don´t write "nobody needs T1 for tournament/spire". That´s in no way more correct.
I have a good impression of you, and we agree on most things. So it annoys me, when we misunderstand each other.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Unless someone mentioned this and I missed it, one other factor to remember about bracelet producing is the divide between cities that have researched the Elvenar Trade Center AW and those who have not finished chapter 11 yet. Or the difference between same-chapter cities, where one has a level 15 ETC and the other never built it. At that level, we are talking increasing the bonus from a MM enchantment by around 30%. That is a big boost for late-game players and makes three factories produce like they are four.
 
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little bee

Well-Known Member
Let me try to return to the actual point about bracelets being to difficult here.
I don´t disagree, that bracelets suck because they´re a bottleneck.
This is exactly the part that a lot of us are disagreeing with. I think that bracelets are great exactly because they are a bottleneck. They pose little hinderance to casuals (i.e everyone content with finishing only one path) but they severly limit card-core players in the pit. I do not see this as making the other badges worthless. I see it as reducing the pressure to massively overproduce them. As I have said before, my live guild will not have 50 blacksmith left in the end, because I will make sure we do not waste space on such leftovers. Thus the changes will save us space. I like these changes. If other people disagree and want nearly unlimited time in the pit that is fine. This is a matter of opinion and not of universal truth. So there is no point in endlessly arguing about it.
 
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Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
They pose little hinderance to casuals (i.e everyone content with finishing only one path)
Only for full (or almost full) FSs. If FS has, let's say around 10-15 members, especialy with some of them with not so much T1 manus, then those two badges prevents them to finish as I keep repeating. My point is to allow these FSs to finish 1-1-1 not about competition in the pit (especialy for the reason that many events are designed to force players into FA for artefacts).
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
you need only 52 bracelets to finish one path on all maps, even with 10 members that's just one bracelet per day...
 

Aeva

Well-Known Member
They pose little hinderance to casuals (i.e everyone content with finishing only one path) but they severly limit card-core players in the pit. I do not see this as making the other badges worthless.
I think you are right about very casual FS with full members and no beginner cities. They should be allright and be able to finish one path in each map. Probably they also will plan who makes which badge if they want to incorporate the making of badges in normal city activities.

You are terribly wrong about a lot of other FS and the way they want or do play. Competetive playing is a right every FS that wants to does have.
And the problems start when a FS wants to fill every route on all three maps. That should be possible since all the badges, besides arcade and bracelet, are doable in the time given and probably with some shantytowns without having to tear down whole cities. There are people out there that are between chapters, have obtained a few expansions and/or have some big buildings to teleport. It is not that big a deal.

I have no clue where you get the idea from that there is pressure to overproduce the other badges. They are not overproduced, they never were. It's a question of calculating and planning and find some members who like to produce whatever suits them best.

If a FS is held back by two new badges and can plan and produce the other fourteen without problems, you have to look at the two that hold everything back. Maybe bracelets is partly solvible by smaller members of the FS, but you have to have those in a FS.
But the Magic Academy makes what it makes and offers what it offers without any influence from its owner. Than you run into gambling. And that is not allright. If the amount of vv asked is lowered, the possibility to make the arcades should be better and then everybody can make some. That is not the case at the moment.

I do agree the bracelets are a good concept, it's the execution that lacks. Same goes for the arcane. But neither should be a bottleneck, difficult yes. In the old system the statue and smiths had that role. There will always be one that is the hardest to make. But to make it impossible is not allright.

they severly limit card-core players in the pit.
My gut tells me that you don't like hardcore players. That does however not mean you're style is better. It seems you think it is. That is the vibe I get from your posts even if you say otherwise.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
A lot of FS just don't like to teleport whole cities, fill it with lvl1 trash and click gazillion times to be competitive for prizes that not worth such effort => stick to 1 path per map and ignore the rest. New bracelets is a very good change exactly due to it's being a limiting factor. And I'd be very happy if other lvl1-building-badges will be gone as well, replaced by something that is actually needed in normal gameplay.
 

Aeva

Well-Known Member
A lot of FS just don't like to teleport whole cities, fill it with lvl1 trash and click gazillion times to be competitive for prizes that not worth such effort => stick to 1 path per map and ignore the rest. New bracelets is a very good change exactly due to it's being a limiting factor. And I'd be very happy if other lvl1-building-badges will be gone as well, replaced by something that is actually needed in normal gameplay.
Let me speak for my own FS. We only play FSA for fun. We did win once and we will not repeat that since we are no specialists in FSA.
We just don't like to follow one path. We do them all because all of us just like it that way. Some members want to take it easy sometimes and they can. That doesn't stop the rest of us. By the way: we don't play for the prizes, some of us want the artefacts and they allways get them.
Just like you I am not very pleased with the level 1's. Untill they are not needed anymore I just will have to put up with them. And I also do not like the pit. But unless they are replaced by something else I play.
No FS should be forced to play someone else's style. If yours doesn't want shantytowns, then don't build them. No big deal. But just don't try to obligate others to play like you want them to.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
There always would be players who like the changes and who hate them.
For this particular change I'm the one who like it.
 

Aeva

Well-Known Member
There always would be players who like the changes and who hate them.
For this particular change I'm the one who like it.
I also like most of it because it is a lot more interesting and I like the stuff I get because I do an extra step.
I worry about my FS because I know some members will get overexcited and take on more then they can chew.
It's just the amount that is asked in the bracelets and in the arcane that's bothering me.
 
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Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
you need only 52 bracelets to finish one path on all maps, even with 10 members that's just one bracelet per day...
And that might be a problem since there are chapters where there is a huge jump in requirements, but little to no increase in production.
While I'm ok with my 6 t1, there are chapters where you would need 10 or even 20 T1s to get 1 bracelet/day (mostly the lower chapters).
Of course, counting T1+T2+T3 production (or lowering the requirements) solves it.

And residue is even worse with it's random recipe gambling and for many players it's limited supply.
Lowering the amount of needed VV or changing it to craft 1 (one and only one) recipe would solve it for most.

Don't forget that not everyone has the same stocks & production & abilities & space & time & (whatever else) like we do.
 

Aeva

Well-Known Member
Three examples no spells used to make 1 bracelet:
chapter XV = 82K => 11x planks for 9h
chapter VII = 17,8K => 6x steel 9h
chapter VII = 17,8K => 9x marble 9h
It even differs in the same chapter different T1.
Those cities are mine and obviously I do neither have 11 planks nor 9 marble. Even 6 steel is not normal, I have 5.
 

lika1961

Well-Known Member
@Aeva I wish I could like your post twice. A lot of people don't like the FA and therefore don't think it is a big deal when changes are made to it. Fair enough. That does not take away from the fact that those who do love it are upset by the recent changes. Imagine if changes were made to the tourney system so that you could suddenly only do 6 chests even though you can normally do 10 in your sleep.

People are free to build as many or as few extra buildings for the FA as they want. If you only want to do 1 route on each map, cool. If you don't want to spend much time in the Pit, groovy. Our experience was that although we were able to easily make 200 of each badge for the Pit, we could not manage even 50 of the Bracelets and Arcane Residues. In fact, not even 10. That is not reasonable for people who want to do the work required.

The requirement for Bracelets and Arcane Residues needs to be drastically reduced. It shouldn't be necessary to use a lot of your time instants to just scrape through one route on each map. An FS that is capable of a top 5 finish should not have to settle for 14th place through no fault of their own.

5 of each badge in the Pit is too much. We have been through this conversation before.

Not all badges should go to the Pit. Why should they? It was never like that before. I don't fight in tournament, so why would I want extra troops?

The new requirement does not eliminate the cities with lots of small factories. They are just all marble now,

One of the main reasons I like the FA is that it is a phenomenal team building experience for a fellowship that enjoys it. People are excited, they work hard, lots of chat and cheers as they progress. Great stuff. It creates a cohesive group in a game that relies on teamwork.

And finally, doing well in the FA has never been about winning fantastic prizes. It is about setting a goal and going for it. Working your heart out and finishing high in the rankings. How can that be a bad thing in an environment where teamwork is encouraged?
 

little bee

Well-Known Member
Only for full (or almost full) FSs. If FS has, let's say around 10-15 members, especialy with some of them with not so much T1 manus, then those two badges prevents them to finish as I keep repeating. My point is to allow these FSs to finish 1-1-1 not about competition in the pit (especialy for the reason that many events are designed to force players into FA for artefacts).
And we keep showing you the calculations that prove this statement wrong! After we got the list of how many goods the bracelets needs in each chapter, I asked my fellowship how much they usually produce. All of them are able to make at least one bracelet in two days with no more than 3 collections per day. And that includes those members of my fellowship that reduced their T1 production in favor of T2. The average appears to be one bracelet per day with two collections. So the average, casual, 10 member city still has a shot. And honestly, it's not like the previous FA was a walk in the park for such a fellowship.

You are terribly wrong about a lot of other FS and the way they want or do play. Competetive playing is a right every FS that wants to does have.
And the problems start when a FS wants to fill every route on all three maps. That should be possible since all the badges, besides arcade and bracelet, are doable in the time given and probably with some shantytowns without having to tear down whole cities. There are people out there that are between chapters, have obtained a few expansions and/or have some big buildings to teleport. It is not that big a deal.
First of all, I can only repeat myself again, filling alls path takes only one bracelet and residue per player and day. This is absolutly possible. And I don't see a problem, if finishing all path poses at least some challenge. Second, if the FA becomes more difficult for everyone than this does in no way effect competive playing. As I said before, it not possible for a ranking competition to become more difficult for everyone.

My gut tells me that you don't like hardcore players. That does however not mean you're style is better. It seems you think it is. That is the vibe I get from your posts even if you say otherwise.
I assure you, I am very much a hard-core player myself (at least in top 1%). I just don't like spending days in the pit and I don't like pretending that I am a casual defending the interests of a mayority.
 
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little bee

Well-Known Member
Three examples no spells used to make 1 bracelet:
chapter XV = 82K => 11x planks for 9h
chapter VII = 17,8K => 6x steel 9h
chapter VII = 17,8K => 9x marble 9h
It even differs in the same chapter different T1.
Those cities are mine and obviously I do neither have 11 planks nor 9 marble. Even 6 steel is not normal, I have 5.
In other words, if everyone has an average of 5 planks/ marble or 3 steel factories, then they can produce one bracelet per day with two 9h collections. Why do you not consider this to be realistic?
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
People are free to build as many or as few extra buildings for the FA as they want. If you only want to do 1 route on each map, cool. If you don't want to spend much time in the Pit, groovy. Our experience was that although we were able to easily make 200 of each badge for the Pit, we could not manage even 50 of the Bracelets and Arcane Residues. In fact, not even 10. That is not reasonable for people who want to do the work required.
We managed to close 35 full cycles of pit = 175 of each badge, without any preparation for bracelets (nobody built any additional T1 in advance, on live there is still time to prepare more of them) and with few players missing.
One of the main reasons I like the FA is that it is a phenomenal team building experience for a fellowship that enjoys it. People are excited, they work hard, lots of chat and cheers as they progress. Great stuff. It creates a cohesive group in a game that relies on teamwork.
New setup just encourage different kind of players to participate in FA. And it's still competitive. It was fun for us to climb up to top 2 on last day here.

As they can switch setups as they want, they can cater all kind of players giving different setups for different FAs. But if current one will give much better involvement and bigger cash income - they can go further and abandon old setups... and same goes the opposite, if it will completely fail - they can roll back to old setups and throw out current one...
 

Aeva

Well-Known Member
In other words, if everyone has an average of 5 planks/ marble or 3 steel factories, then they can produce one bracelet per day with two 9h collections. Why do you not consider this to be realistic?
Because it isn't.
1. People are not average nor are cities. Average is a number not reality.
2. When collecting you have a small or a huge loss of goods that do not count in at least one factory.
3. Building a full scale T1 just for a FA so the numbers match better is also not realistic.
 

little bee

Well-Known Member
Because it isn't.
1. People are not average nor are cities. Average is a number not reality.
2. When collecting you have a small or a huge loss of goods that do not count in at least one factory.
3. Building a full scale T1 just for a FA so the numbers match better is also not realistic.
A guild that plays the FA should have at least 10 members. So they will always average each other out to some degree. And the overflow can at least be reduced by shorter production times.

Interesting. Since little bee is dead on all worlds even this one I suppose you are an alias. So you can say that, but I can't see that.
As a matter of fact, yes I am. I like defending unpopular positions on the forum, but I don't want any personal attacks in game. So I like to keep my privacy. And I don't see why it would be relevant anyways. I try to stick either to hard calculations or to my own personal opinions. Neither of those require me to publicise my playing style.
 

Verde

Well-Known Member
Some players seem to want to argue simply for the sake of it ... been considering the Ignore option for a while ... time!
 
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