Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

[DeletedUser2803]

Are you refering to old system or new system? because this squad sizes from my image are comparable to around province 90 on your live server, and if half of your units will survive on auto combat would that still feel accepted losses?

To be honest for me it always feels like cheating when I win a battle without any losses. Considering that traders have to pay in every single encounter. For me it seems to be fair that fighters can't avoid losses anymore like they used to do. Ask any pure trader how far he got in the old system. Surely never to province 90. On live server whenever I think about trading because of hard enemy composition I look at the price and just go in with troops and take the losses whatever they are.

I agree that the new system is harder for fighters than before. But let's be honest. Before you could get 500 knowledge points for free as a fighter, while a trader could basically not even achieve 100 if he tried hard.

And again, how often does this composition pop up? If 1 or 2 battles out of 10 have hard composition, you still can negotiate. You have the option to avoid hard fights and pick the easy ones.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Are you refering to old system or new system? because this squad sizes from my image are comparable to around province 90 on your live server, and if half of your units will survive on auto combat would that still feel accepted losses?

Half assuming you use many buff buildings? the enemy SS is twice yours so without buffs it will overpower you.
That single baasttle with a 50% loss would be 6-6.5 hours "repair time" for a single battle assuming you a maxed out military building s with a maxed out buff wonder and a maxed out sapiens. otherwise it's worse lol.

What provincince and round was this? around 20? or beyond that?

 

[CrazyWizard]

To be honest for me it always feels like cheating when I win a battle without any losses. Considering that traders have to pay in every single encounter. For me it seems to be fair that fighters can't avoid losses anymore like they used to do. Ask any pure trader how far he got in the old system. Surely never to province 90. On live server whenever I think about trading because of hard enemy composition I look at the price and just go in with troops and take the losses whatever they are.

I agree that the new system is harder for fighters than before. But let's be honest. Before you could get 500 knowledge points for free as a fighter, while a trader could basically not even achieve 100 if he tried hard.

And again, how often does this composition pop up? If 1 or 2 battles out of 10 have hard composition, you still can negotiate. You have the option to avoid hard fights and pick the easy ones.

It's about time people stop thinking in being a "trader" or a "Fighter" the best result is/should always be a combination of the two.
This whole fighter vs negotiator thinking is just BS beyond "casual" 8 provinces.

 

[DeletedUser2803]

It's about time people stop thinking in being a "trader" or a "Fighter" the best result is/should always be a combination of the two.
This whole fighter vs negotiator thinking is just BS beyond "casual" 8 provinces.

I fully agree That's why I said that if hard enemy compositions pop up like 10-20% of the time, you always can negotiate. I said in one of my posts before that it would be boring if fighting would always be the best option. So yes, I agree, it should be trading AND fighting. However on live, it is 100% fighting. Trading is never a sensible option. No matter how hard the fight is, fighting is still cheaper on live. That's why I think the changes make the tournament overall more fair. Not discussing about absolute difficulty (e.g. if it should get easier for all). Just comparing the 2 options, trading finally makes sense, e.g. to avoid those hard compositions Dony posted.

 

[CrazyWizard]

I fully agree That's why I said that if hard enemy compositions pop up like 10-20% of the time, you always can negotiate. I said in one of my posts before that it would be boring if fighting would always be the best option. So yes, I agree, it should be trading AND fighting. However on live, it is 100% fighting. Trading is never a sensible option. No matter how hard the fight is, fighting is still cheaper on live. That's why I think the changes make the tournament overall more fair. Not discussing about absolute difficulty (e.g. if it should get easier for all). Just comparing the 2 options, trading finally makes sense, e.g. to avoid those hard compositions Dony posted.

I always negotiated untill the moment I got to many units thanks to multiple brown bears + spire
Untill that time I was always balancing my units vs hopw far I could come.

but unlike currently on live if I did not have so many units aviable, I would still be negotiating, but that negotiation is possible. the new version is kinda impossible unfortunatly, the current live version doesnt ask for stuff like mana, coins and supplies, and less for orcs, those factors make the current beta implementation of negotiating much harder than current live where you just have to pay regular goods.

 

[ErestorX]

It's about time people stop thinking in being a "trader" or a "Fighter" the best result is/should always be a combination of the two.
This whole fighter vs negotiator thinking is just BS beyond "casual" 8 provinces.

I always thought so in the past as well. But with the current changes I changed my mind. If you want to fight now it is more efficient to have a lower squad size than to place expansions for goods you need to trade. It shouldn't be that way but unfortunately it is.

 

[edeba]

You can't get any more bias and absurd in the analysis to actually make it easier for the casual play, which is less likely to the be the players who spend money, and then figure that because they are happier because the changes did benefit them that that should be weighted at all with how the most active players have been slaughtered here. The majority of the players I play with spend money and the tournament changes have hurt the lot of them. It has also materially devalued game investment.

Just to emphasize: I indeed don't mean the word "fanatic" in a negative way. Call it passionate / hardcore / die hard, whatever you like. The point is, as @CiraKelley indicated above, that it's generally this group of players who find their way to the forums and react the most strongly, especially on Beta, where it's in general the most passionate players who want to be part of that process. While it is of course very valuable feedback, we should not forget that it is not always representative for the entire player base. We have multiple ways to ask for/receive feedback, also out of the Beta forums. E.g. we have our social media channels, support tickets, we regularly send out player surveys etc etc.

 

[spennyit]

Before you could get 500 knowledge points for free as a fighter ...

I wish I knew how you can get 500 KPs for free!!!!!

 

[DeletedUser3236]

It is far from free. For me it is a lot of 5 hr. time instants and armorers earned from the spire. A lot of supply instants, spelled workshops, and crafted troop boosts from the magic academy. I have one brown bear and one phoenix.
I really enjoy the tournaments and put a lot of effort into them to get as far as I can. I average 3500 - 5000 points and on push weeks when I need a relic (I craft a lot in the MA) I may get 8500 if I drain a lot of resources. If this change is implemented in the way it sounds like it's going to be (with a few minor changes of course) I feel like everything I have done for the last five years and the money I have invested to grow my city is wasted. It's depressing.

 

[PaNonymeB]

I dont know maybe i am missing something, but can any mobile user tell me how they will combat this?

HR, HR, HR, LR, LR should do the job with acceptable losses.

As a mobile player for 2+ years (although I have an experience of browser play from my family, but I'm used to play on my tablet), I'd never put such a setup as I'd be afraid my units don't do what they are supposed to do. Mobile is basically not allowing any advanced strategy as it doesn't give detailed information about units and doesn't allow manual fighting.
What I would see is the heavy ranged enemy is strong against LM and LR, but specialised against LR (5 swords/3 swords). The heavy melee one is strong against HR and LM, but more against HR. Both the mistwalkers and the mage are easily defeated by LM, so if I should fight this I'd put 5 LM.
Now, with an enemy squad size of ~1.8× mine, which is higher than current live 6*, I would definitely cater this as with my usual boosts (Fire phoenix + 1 UUU) I already take some losses in live 5*/6* with similar setups (2 counterunits with 3 swords).
But, with the same setup but enemy squad size only ~1.3× mine, especially if I was a mobile player not knowing anything about manual fighting (and thus not knowing how light melee sucks because they can't have the first hit and can be blocked by the battlefield), I'd probably fight it (and get terrible losses because LM sucks, or even a defeat if the battlefield is bad).

Even if mobile manual fighting isn't ready yet, more information in-game about what's behing this "Fight" button would be MUCH welcome. Again the same problem of playing the game without knowing the rules, although here it's worse because only a part of players are given the rules, which makes the game unfair. (Hoping this sentence will NOT make them make browser fighting as mobile without the rules.)

 

[tradescantia]

If being able to complete 10 chests is now presumed that everyone will do 6 rounds, I'd like you please to consider people in time-zones other than Europe. Perhaps consider making the Bears available in crafting and provide some means of getting artifacts to evolve them. Remember that the TimeWarp AW doesn't appear until very late in the game.

 

[Dony]

This would be a temporary solution but not a permanent one, it would be an delay of execution.
In a few chapters this gap will just grow larger and larger again untill again it's no longer "acceptable" but at that time we are stuck with it for years.

I wouldnt care much about what will happen in the future, they should make competitive playing field for all players across the board right now. This is already 3rd rebalance in 4 years, most likely there will be another in 2 years for many reasons, game will evolve somehow in good or bad way and they will need to react to that (exactly same way how they are doing it right now), we are on the end of cycle for combat related additions, once they start to add something new they can unbalance whole system again, if they dont add up anything new and the game will stagnate like it is now (events barely gives any "power" to users now and in 2 years grand prize might be 1 KP or 1 sword dancer, last chapters are boring and not intuitive giving barely any power to players) then how long will player tolarate that? It will be boring or not fun at all, they will need to come up with something new and fresh and powerful again.

And there are many ways how to control borders to keep the challenge on comparable levels and also to keep the progress of the city, if players dont want to continue playing the next chapter then implement tech on the end of each chapter (start with 17) which will reduce SS by set % (tech factor) for tournament/spire to the point it was on the end of previous chapter (it can even be optional tech so players who ignore those features dont need to research it), something similar to advanced scouts, introduce AW which will reduce aw factor by x% which will have more benefit for players with many AW levels, introduce pet evolving building which will reduce factors when fed by -3 normal expansion, -2 paid expansions, -70 aw levels, -30 techs (basicly -1 chapter), introduce cap for factors, for example 300 levels for AWs so after that point its no longer a problem and you can continue leveling them, or cap for expansions so you promote buying more of them after cap, and those caps are the borders i mentioned earlier, there can be AW or evolving building which gives % of spent resources back and many other ways.

Not only advanced players are a problem now, it is perfectly possible to reach chapter 7-8 with 0 expansions, boost and aws, and those accounts can do 25 provinces where squad size for all 25 rounds are 10, where negotiation cost for chapter 8 is 6k coins or 600 supplies, those accounts alone can reach all 19 chests without much problems, negotiations for spire is non-existent for them, they dont need armory because of unit instants, they can research all optional SSU and have enough units for years, all they need is 1 snail, 1 magic residence and 1 magic workshops (all comes from spire for free) and a trader (and rest is whatever you want). They need to use both formulas and use squad sizes which are higher to prevent this.

I think the main goal for devs now is to deplete all players resources and keep them low to give them challenge at any given time, which is a problem if players ignore tournaments and spire, because those players will have billions of resources compared to others and they are unaffected by this change, they can get KPs from other sources if they want and i predict that TOP players on servers will be exaclty like this, just do minimum in tournaments to get blueprints and keep pumping their AWs without any hesitation if all those changes hit the live servers, because lets be real here, ranking players care about ranking points and not about increased challenge.

What provincince and round was this? around 20? or beyond that?

it was around 20, but with your advanced city on live it will be 10

It has also materially devalued game investment.

I actually think for diamond spenders it devalue their money aswell, the more they buy the more they will have to pay in tournament as a result with diamonds, for example reviving units, same difficulty then players who dont buy diamonds but because SS will be higher they will pay more diamonds for the same act.

I have recorded yesterday first round if anyone is interested to see the new setups and maps, it definitely felt that i am fighting 4 classes more often then advertised change when comparing to last week.

Spoiler: Gems

 

[spennyit]

As a mobile player for 2+ years (although I have an experience of browser play from my family, but I'm used to play on my tablet), I'd never put such a setup as I'd be afraid my units don't do what they are supposed to do. Mobile is basically not allowing any advanced strategy as it doesn't give detailed information about units and doesn't allow manual fighting.
What I would see is the heavy ranged enemy is strong against LM and LR, but specialised against LR (5 swords/3 swords). The heavy melee one is strong against HR and LM, but more against HR. Both the mistwalkers and the mage are easily defeated by LM, so if I should fight this I'd put 5 LM.
Now, with an enemy squad size of ~1.8× mine, which is higher than current live 6*, I would definitely cater this as with my usual boosts (Fire phoenix + 1 UUU) I already take some losses in live 5*/6* with similar setups (2 counterunits with 3 swords).
But, with the same setup but enemy squad size only ~1.3× mine, especially if I was a mobile player not knowing anything about manual fighting (and thus not knowing how light melee sucks because they can't have the first hit and can be blocked by the battlefield), I'd probably fight it (and get terrible losses because LM sucks, or even a defeat if the battlefield is bad).

Even if mobile manual fighting isn't ready yet, more information in-game about what's behing this "Fight" button would be MUCH welcome. Again the same problem of playing the game without knowing the rules, although here it's worse because only a part of players are given the rules, which makes the game unfair. (Hoping this sentence will NOT make them make browser fighting as mobile without the rules.)

@PaNonymeB, why not 5 LR?

 

[PaNonymeB]

@PaNonymeB, why not 5 LR?

Although they would perform better against the HM, LR would be destroyed by the orc strategist and would (theoretically, according to app) perform worse than LM against mistwalkers.
If you look at total swords against all units, you get Drone Rider = -3-3+5+3+5 = 7 swords, and Archer = +4-5+0+0+4 = 3 swords. Other LM give 6 (Sword Dancer) or 5 (Cerberus), other LR give 3, mages give -2, HM give -6 to -4 and HR give -4 to 0.
Plus, I usually try avoiding facing enemies with 5 swords against me (meaning I actually count them as ~-8) as it can be very hard to kill, especially if AI stupidly chooses the wrong enemy to kill first.

 

[DeletedUser2803]

for example reviving units, same difficulty then players who dont buy diamonds but because SS will be higher they will pay more diamonds for the same act.

Hm, on live healing units is directly linked to your squad size in spire. So someone with twice the SS in Spire (in future also tournament) pays the same amount of diamonds to heal a full squad (twice as many units). Is it different in new tournament now?

 

[PaNonymeB]

Oops, just realised I said the HR in the picture was an orc strategist while it isn't, and is actually 5 swords against LM. So @spennyit you're right, I'd put 5 LR. (Both drone rider and any LR are +5)

 

[DeletedUser2803]

Oops, just realised I said the HR in the picture was an orc strategist while it isn't, and is actually 5 swords against LM. So @spennyit you're right, I'd put 5 LR. (Both drone rider and any LR are +5)

I would put up at least one or two heavy ranged simply to soak damage from mist walkers' first strike. The damage reduction against LR helps a lot. If you do mortars they will stay back and not get attacked by mages or knights usually.

 

[PaNonymeB]

I would put up at least one or two heavy ranged simply to soak damage from mist walkers' first strike. The damage reduction against LR helps a lot. If you do mortars they will stay back and not get attacked by mages or knights usually.

Yes, but as I said,

Mobile is basically not allowing any advanced strategy as it doesn't give detailed information about units

so you can't guess such things on mobile.
Plus, why would mistwalkers strike your HR and not your LR first ?

 

[spennyit]

Although they would perform better against the HM, LR would be destroyed by the orc strategist and would (theoretically, according to app) perform worse than LM against mistwalkers.
If you look at total swords against all units, you get Drone Rider = -3-3+5+3+5 = 7 swords, and Archer = +4-5+0+0+4 = 3 swords. Other LM give 6 (Sword Dancer) or 5 (Cerberus), other LR give 3, mages give -2, HM give -6 to -4 and HR give -4 to 0.
Plus, I usually try avoiding facing enemies with 5 swords against me (meaning I actually count them as ~-8) as it can be very hard to kill, especially if AI stupidly chooses the wrong enemy to kill first.

Thank you for your explanation Of course also terrain should be considered, although I think you cannot see it in app :-( I would probably go with 5 LM because drones can find obstacles to get in touch with opponents.

 

[DeletedUser1657]

Considering that traders have to pay in every single encounter. For me it seems to be fair that fighters can't avoid losses anymore like they used to do.

I agree that the new system is harder for fighters than before. But let's be honest. Before you could get 500 knowledge points for free as a fighter, while a trader could basically not even achieve 100 if he tried hard.

Considering 100% trading is a niche build what would you expect? Why is it a niche build? Look at our towns and quests and what buildings we can't delete, it is obvious we are meant to have both approaches for a balanced town. Could be wrong but have a feeling that having both has been mentioned sometime in the past. You do realise with the new system 1,600 pts can be done by combat with minimal losses compared to a caterer who has to pay for every round?

The point Dony was making is you can lose half your army in a single fight now with a bad match-up. You don't lose 50-100% of your goods on a bad cater. Both areas need to be reasonable so players can choose the best approach for they play style and skill. Both catering and combat has received numerous comments for adjustment in the new system.

I like the scaling difficulty I think it brings back a skill challenge but I do believe they need to address the rate of increasing difficulty and the massive squad sizes. If they had done one of those there would have bee a lot less complaining, still plenty but less. However they chose to take a double hammer and miscalculated the chest levels based on the new high scores. Not the first time they have done that so we will see what the adjustments are.

In terms of 500kp for free that's impressive, did you track those costs, gut feel, or just exaggerating for towns who put out dozens of temp buildings on the easiest tournaments? While I never tracked my KP from tournies I did track losses and losing 500-1,000 squads was common depending on the tourny and temp buildings. I know plenty of players who get big scores in tournies and they either cater the occasioanal province or cater heavily in spire. Only people I have seen who combat spire and tourny either get "low" scores on tourny or they are a couple people on the forum. To me that shows that combat only is not not combat only, many players pay the price to have to cater spire as a result.

There is some benefit to the change to even up the tournaments, so we don't see the wild swings in losses and scores, but it sadly comes at a price of making learning combat harder for new players, opposite of one of their goals. Hard for a new player to learn combat on world map when they face impossible squad size difficulties, different compositions to tournaments and the tournaments they do face basically cant be lost. So no learning what units to use against what.