DeletedUser3289
Guest
I deleted that comment as I felt it inappropriate.
really glad you feel the same way.
wishing you best in real life.
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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)
- Thread starter Marindor
- Start date
really glad you feel the same way.
wishing you best in real life.
Karvest
Well-Known Member
* Don't place tech tree/province expansions as well
CrazyWizard
Well-Known Member
Btw those who do not play the tournaments can still push trough the roof as there are no consequenses for them.
So there will still be a group who will keep pushing, this change does not make a difference in that regard.
There are also other ways to "legally" level your wonders without resorting to pushing and some people have been doing this very effectivly for the past few years. you also lowered the diamond price for wonder KP, but again whats the incentive to do that?
Yup it's called, for optimal tournament results, do not play this game, and make sure you do not spend a single penny lol
So there will still be a group who will keep pushing, this change does not make a difference in that regard.
There are also other ways to "legally" level your wonders without resorting to pushing and some people have been doing this very effectivly for the past few years. you also lowered the diamond price for wonder KP, but again whats the incentive to do that?
Yup it's called, for optimal tournament results, do not play this game, and make sure you do not spend a single penny lol
DeletedUser1953
Guest
When i read the explanation => if you make more effort (time, analyse, optimize, pay diamond), you are penalized but it is for "fair play", you want the leveling of all player, it becomes a socialist game ^^ There is always gamers they try to optimize the game, but it is very rare they are punish except if they use a "hole" in the game but it was you do !
Thus do not buy, only play 2 times per day, do not analyse the game and you will be happy, ... i need to find another game !
Thus do not buy, only play 2 times per day, do not analyse the game and you will be happy, ... i need to find another game !
PaNonymeB
Well-Known Member
This is a contradiction... if you're making cost proportional to production, then progression gives you as much benefit as negative effects, not more.
DeletedUser2803
Guest
When I look into top guilds for spire (e.g. gold medal) they are full of chapter 16 players with a lot of wonders and expansions. It is kind of hard to believe that the formula punishes people for progress, as those who struggle most with the spire are usually players with lower chapters and low amount of wonders.
In my own guild (Weltenwanderer DE5) we are top 5 in tournaments and top 5 in spire, we are also top 5 in ranking points. So it seems more ranking points equal to higher score in spire. Also inside my guild the players who finish stage 3 every single week are those who have a lot of wonders on level 20-30 and lot of premium expansions.
This is the exact opposite of the picture you are painting here.
In my own guild (Weltenwanderer DE5) we are top 5 in tournaments and top 5 in spire, we are also top 5 in ranking points. So it seems more ranking points equal to higher score in spire. Also inside my guild the players who finish stage 3 every single week are those who have a lot of wonders on level 20-30 and lot of premium expansions.
This is the exact opposite of the picture you are painting here.
Marindor
Well-Known Member
Hi guys,
Just a small extra emphasis as it seems my previous post wasn't clear for everyone:
As I tried to explain before as well: progression (so either leveling wonders, placing expansions, researching technologies etc) always gives you more benefit than the influence they have on the difficulty of the tournaments. If you're looking just at the static numbers: Sure, they'll be higher because of it. But if you put your current city/situation into an exactly similar environment, but would remove your expansions and Ancient Wonders, and therefore all the extra city space and benefits they bring, you certainly won't have an easier time in the tournaments. Progression, also in this new setup, is always beneficial, as it should be. Just not to a point where it leads to free rewards for everyone without any effort in the tournament itself.
Like I also said before: we know we're not there yet, especially for the high end cities, and we're investigating this data, but if you really think that removing your AW will give you an easier time in the tournaments, than there is some serious miscommunication. So hopefully I've been able totake that confusion away now.
Just a small extra emphasis as it seems my previous post wasn't clear for everyone:
As I tried to explain before as well: progression (so either leveling wonders, placing expansions, researching technologies etc) always gives you more benefit than the influence they have on the difficulty of the tournaments. If you're looking just at the static numbers: Sure, they'll be higher because of it. But if you put your current city/situation into an exactly similar environment, but would remove your expansions and Ancient Wonders, and therefore all the extra city space and benefits they bring, you certainly won't have an easier time in the tournaments. Progression, also in this new setup, is always beneficial, as it should be. Just not to a point where it leads to free rewards for everyone without any effort in the tournament itself.
Like I also said before: we know we're not there yet, especially for the high end cities, and we're investigating this data, but if you really think that removing your AW will give you an easier time in the tournaments, than there is some serious miscommunication. So hopefully I've been able totake that confusion away now.
PaNonymeB
Well-Known Member
But at the same time you make changes that makes reaching 10 chests much easier if you use 25 push accounts that do 1600 points each, and much harder else. Favorising teamwork is favorising pushing, as no team communicates better than a player with itself.
Karvest
Well-Known Member
But removing half of AWs (or don't building them at all, like I do) would really give easier time in the tournaments.
Deleted User - 88552
Guest
In my one Chapter 6 city, i have a low level Needles, GA and Tome. I can hardly progress up the Spire. AW power is huge
maxiqbert
Well-Known Member
since everything you do to improve your city give a "plus" on one side and a multiplication on the other side (the penalty), you should never say never, nor always : basic maths!
CrazyWizard
Well-Known Member
In that case there is some serious rework to be done, essentially starting again from scratch.
We understand the intention, but we also like to point out you aren't even close to realising this unless you start again from scratch.
Karvest
Well-Known Member
In chapter 6 you have easy convince.
We have chapter 4 member who goes full spire + 1600 points in tourney every week.
CrazyWizard
Well-Known Member
It's in no way easy, and has more to do with determination and coordination than with how much wonders you have.
Here are a few numbers from this week from the 3rd stage
Try to imagine this in your city and see if you would still be able to go to the top.
For one I use like 40-50 ensorcelled spells every week to help me out with the coin issue.
Some magical manufactoring and special old sets that I abused in crazy configurations is what's keeping me afloat in the spire.
This is as much as 8 T1 factories can produce theoretically a day, and 12 factories realistically on the chain footprint of about 1-1.5 factory
I don't fight either it's impossible for me.
I do have a chapter 4 city who can progress / negotiate easy trough the spire.
Sometimes knowing what you do is more important than where you are in game, Even out lowest member in a gold fellowship with 88K points, chapter 7 and no special wonders (level 12 bulwark, level 4 tome of secrets, level 30 golden abyss, level 5 excavation) makes it to the top every single week.
How "active" you are in game and knowledge makes a huge difference, ask your more experienced players for help so you can learn from them.
DeletedUser3289
Guest
Probably cuz the picture painted is for tourney in beta. Not in any other server where no one has tried.
DeletedUser2803
Guest
As far as I understood the same formula as in spire is used? Talking about expansions and wonders effecting the costs.
DeletedUser3289
Guest
Oh don’t say that. We don’t want it to be the be the next nerf.
Dony
King of Bugs
correct
CrazyWizard
Well-Known Member
Lol we havent seen a similar set since winterevent that same year, that was the last crazy set, spire set is a joke compared to that one.
But I am one of the very very very few with a set like that it ain;t a problem, winterset was much more of an issue. this set configuration stil exist at 3 still active playing players worldwide as far as I know.
ErestorX
Well-Known Member
Thanks that you explained some of the reasoning of the team that led to the current formula for troop size, I guess that will help to give more specific feedback.
First I will give you more details concerning the examples I mentioned in #326 where someone doesn't get enough benefits for the additional costs of the higher troop size.
Let's compare my city at the end of the research tree (actually stopped before troop research) with all expansions available and 433 wonder levels to the city I mentioned above at the end of research and with all expansions as well but many additional wonder levels. The additional wonders are: Endless Excavation, Thrones of the high man, Blooming Trader Guild, Enars Embassy, Elvenar Trade center, Sunset Towers, Lighthouse, Vortex, the 2 chaper 16 wonders and Maze. Furthermore a lot of levels in Crystal lighthouse and Tome of secrets.
In total 153% of my troop size and all the benefit he gets is a bit more mana because of maze and a few drone riders from one of the new wonders. That doesn't only seem as if he is punished, he is punished severly. That was never a problem in the spire, because the rewards he gets there are worth much more than his losses. And since only a very small fraction of all our troops is used in the spire the impact of the higher troop size there is negligible overall.
Concerning space it is simple: t1-t3, supplies and orcs scale more or less linearly with space, but gold (mainly from Abyss and neighbourly help), mana (mainly from Abbey) and troops don't. Therefore at least for people willing to fight manually the troops saved by lower troop size are worth much more than anything that could be built on additional space. And even for traders the space becomes almost worthless once they have enough manufacturies, supplies and orcs to match their mana and/or gold production.
But I guess we have elaborated enough on this problem, I would like to add a few points concerning the goals you mentioned in your post.
You want to give people an incentive to move on in the research tree instead of sitting and simply filling wonders. In my experience cities have paused research for 3 reasons in the past:
1. They wanted to avoid the next troop researches because it was a long way until the advantages of additional research made up for the disadvantages of the troop research. You have handeld this problem quite nicely, simply increasing troop size in a smoother manner with every research instead of troop size research should do the trick.
2. The city was some secondary city for pushing or diamond generation or whatever. Unfortunately balancing is irrelevant in this case.
3. The player was in the process of quitting the game. Again, balancing does not help in this case.
You also mentioned that you do not want to make push accounts more attractive. The most effective form of push account currently is a level 4 city with lots of provinces that are all catered up to round 5 using t1 goods from the main account and returning most of the kp to the main account. These cities only need to produce supplies and gold. With increasing the difficulty of the higher provinces you have possibly made this approach less effective which is good. But scaling troop size with wonder levels and space used actually is very beneficial for this kind of push account. Since the goods needed are provided by the main city it needs much less space than normal cities in the same chapter and since the kp are mainly transferred to the main city it also typically does not have wonders, possibly with the exception of golden abyss.
Not encouraging pushing therefore is one more reason to get rid of scaling troop size with extensions and wonder levels!