Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

[edeba]

I tend to agree, the changes are great for the more casual player. I tend to think anyone that's been doing a tournament score of 1500 to 2k or less is not dealing with any of the slaughter and it way less clicking and it completely opens up time to doing a few battles if inclined.

About reducing time & click, big thumbs-up! It's encouraging me to do manual fight, because I'm a very lazy player and always do auto (I know that it's not the cheapest way to do a tournament, but I get bored and feel like wasting time).
About destroing tournament, well, I don't agree in an absolute way.
My middle players are happy about this change, and actually we're going to get 9th chest (my fs rarely do it); one of my fellow, in orc chapter, has done more than 2k points in 3 days without big issues, and it's the first time she does more than 1500 points (and in 5 days).
So, while I agree that some modifications will be welcomed, to me and my fellows this has been more positive than negative.
Yeah, maybe because we're casual players, but these are my 5 cents.

Oh, and I use time reducers in my live city, because I'm lazy and don't want to set alarms, I work and have family and friends too (obviously I don't have Time Warp being in the middle of Constructs, and my Polar Bear is not fully evolved), and never spent more the 30h instants, that I easily gain in Spire (or using spell fragments from Spire to craft the in MA).

 

[DeletedUser2630]

Getting 1600 points was not difficult before. Little time and relatively few units. Enough 10 provinces for 4 stars.

From my point of view, this new setting is not about clicking less at all.

It's just about how, after ceilinging the buildings, the wonders continue to complicate playing for more advanced active players. And all this under the pretext of "simplification".

 

[Pauly7]

@Steelhail, I think the whole idea with the tournament nerfing is they want to give out less KP than they are doing. It's therefore fairly unlikely that they will ramp it back up again.

 

[CrazyWizard]

@Marindor

In the past 2 players got a different experience in the tournaments based on how many SS upgrades someone had unlocked.
This created a situations where 2 players in the same chapter, with the same unit production got a different tournament difficulty based on how many optional SS researched to completed / skipped, this is now abolished which should even the battlefield

Now we changed to a new form of calculation and actually the same thing happens again.
Now 2 players in the same chapter with the same production do have a different tournament difficulty based on how much they invested in the game, either buying premium expansions or by leveling wonders.

How is this different compared to the old situation, and what is the reasoning behind this move, and why does it specifically target the biggest elvenar fans that are the most active and in case of expansions are the players that fund the game?
If you are aware that one system is flawed why would you build a new system with the same inherent flaw and make it even worse, why not design a system that avoids the flaw all together.

I do understand the new system that it's harder, it's designed to bring competitors closer together so they are more likely to spend diamonds to oust eachother for the best places. I do understand that move, but you can achieve that just as well without making the same error again.

 

[Steelhail]

I echo all the disappointment with the new tournament setup. A lot. Hugely. Don’t misread this following post:—bad, BAD, etc. But …

reducing the encounters from 4 to 1 (like they did from 8 to 4) is a good idea by itself with very little downside. (less practice for newbs is valid)

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't combine our feedback on these into one idea.
I mean if I suggested that inno give everyone cookies, but they gave us cookies and a kick in the bikini area would you blame my cookie idea?

Welcome back, Soggy! While I’m really disappointed by their changes, I can see why INNO would find cookies and bikinis inextricable. (Which is a fun thing to type.) On SA world, my weekly tournament average of 14K means that, when I’m between chapters, I usually pour between 1100-1300 kp in wonders each week, no push accounts. I can manage this because of fire phoenix, brown bear+spire timer instants, dwarven armorers, and military AWs that still haven’t reached their full power. The most cost-prohibitive factors are not troops or unit health but 1.unscouted provinces and 2.the tedious hours of mindless clicking through tournaments every week—the “grinding.” I generally watch Netflix while I’m doing it.

If INNO sped up mindless clicking by 4x (4 encounters in 1) but didn’t simultaneously change the difficulty, here’s what would probably happen:
-Players like me would get huge rewards with much less effort in terms of time investment
- a larger number of players would get significantly higher tournament scores and kp, since it’s 4x easier to get big rewards with less grinding

This would make my outlier kp income less of an outlier. Depending on how many additional players were reaching their own point of ever-spiraling “knowledge-point inflation,” this could create issues in game balance, tech costs, score distribution, etc.

INNO responded pretty similarly to an analogous situation, when adding mobile meant neighborly visits would be 10x faster, so they nerfed the bell spire/crystal lighthouse. In the past, bell spire gave neighborly help for every visit, based on your total # of completed provinces. If you had completed 457 provinces, had a level 20 bell spire, and you visited 300 neighbors, you would get over 190K manufactured goods from one day’s visits. (See CrazyWizard’s bellspire page with the old stats.) But at least you had to spend a couple hours to do it, because you had to point and click with a mouse several times just for a single visit. So once mobile was making it 10x faster and convenient, and people were unlocking more provinces regularly, and AW levels could get added in the future … INNO nerfed the spire. That’s what they do. I’m not sure back then that they were wrong.

@CrazyWizard was right. Asking for tournaments to cut out 75% of the grinding effort meant a difficulty tradeoff was inevitable. I'm hoping there are ways to address their concerns without keeping the tradeoff in its present form.

 

[Steelhail]

@Pauly7 I see your point--what I was hinting at in my second post partly addresses that. In the old version, some players' spiraling tournament scores were solely limited by 1.# of scounted provinces and 2.time for mindless grinding, and suddenly the grinding's 4x faster. Given that tournaments are much harder now (harder to get far, require more strategy than grinding), I think the changes I proposed could satisfy Inno's balancing concerns on kp without reducing player morale to the same extent. But again, just brainstorming.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@CrazyWizard was right. Asking for tournaments to cut out 75% of the grinding effort meant a difficulty tradeoff was inevitable. I'm hoping there are ways to address their concerns without keeping the tradeoff in its present form.

At the risk of getting lynched, I'm ok with this-- in theory. The thing is that Inno (as per usual) swung the nerf bat with both hands and a running start when a little tap would have been fine.

 

[CrazyWizard]

At the risk of getting lynched, I'm ok with this-- in theory. The thing is that Inno (as per usual) swung the nerf bat with both hands and a running start when a little tap would have been fine.

Don't worry I personally do not mind being able to do a lot less as well,
My main gripe is more the difference between player A and B in similar situation just as the SS difference was an issue before, and that it's a disadvantage to progress beyond a certain envelope

 

[Yogi Dave]

I will not talk anymore about how hard is to play the tournament with the last changes, all was covered already, with numbers and explanations

Agree. There is little sense to say anything more until we see what the tourney brings next week, except to say...

Just to clarify this point too: we know that 6 provinces - 6 rounds is enough for getting all 10 chests (it's always been like this, if every member in a full Fellowship take part to tournament); we ensured to make these first provinces easier, so more Fellowships should be able to motivate their players to do (at least) those 6.

I wouldn't say nearly impossible, but maybe difficult; some players have polar bear and/or Time Warp helping with cooldown, but those who - for any reasons- haven't them, can always use time reducer instants (and they are not that hard to get).

These post seem to show a naive understanding of how fellowship actually work in the game, which I find to be sad.

 

[Deleted User - 80736]

Dear Humans and Elves,

The Tournament changes that have been announced here have now been implemented. To make a clear distinction between pre-release and post-release feedback, please use this thread for any feedback after your (first) experience with the current system. If you would like to read back the feedback from before the release, please take a look here.

Kind regards,
Your Elvenar Team

I have one concern that I have not yet seen in the discussion group. I am in orcs (so a fairly low-ranking, newer player. I use elixir relics all the time for crafting and was down to zero. I was really looking forward to gaining a lot of relics in this tourney but with the new format, I find it almost impossible to earn enough to last me until the next elixir tourney. can you please adjust the relics gained in each tourney province or give us another way to gain enough relics to get us through the 9 weeks it takes to get back to the needed goods tourney?
thanks!!

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

These post seem to show a naive understanding of how fellowship actually work in the game, which I find to be sad.

I only play Live on the US servers, so I only know how fellowships work there, where sometimes US individualism gets in the way of keeping a fellowship organized and together. Maybe the players on the European servers work better together and that is all the devs look at? How do we know they even look at anything outside the German servers? Is there a way to see how many fellowships on every server normally get 40k+ points in the tournament? Does elvenstats compile that? It would be interesting to see how many fellowships have 20+ members and the percentage that get all 10 chests.

 

[CrazyWizard]

I only play Live on the US servers, so I only know how fellowships work there, where sometimes US individualism gets in the way of keeping a fellowship organized and together. Maybe the players on the European servers work better together and that is all the devs look at? How do we know they even look at anything outside the German servers? Is there a way to see how many fellowships on every server normally get 40k+ points in the tournament? Does elvenstats compile that? It would be interesting to see how many fellowships have 20+ members and the percentage that get all 10 chests.

Yes you can, set yourself on elvenstats to a player form a certain server.
Once you have and you select tournaments, you get an overvieuw of that specific servers result, and you can check each week they have recorded so far.

 

[DeletedUser3340]

it is not important that you post this message, it is important that you read it.

In the way you developed the matches of the new tournament, for those who play with the soldiers, you caused terror, a real concern.
for those who really enjoyed using the soldiers.

To innovate, as you like to say, you have to align the scores at first,
in this way it will be much more quick and easier for new members and for the others change no much.

As it stands now is in my opinion unthinkable, the disproportion compared to before is exaggerated but .... unfortunately it doesn't matter.
I can't play anymore, not here in the beta but in all the worlds.
I have to make an effort, while before I was looking forward to the tournament

Never before this game I had spent so much time on internet, it means that the game for me was really nice and addictive.

the spire innovation, the buildings to evolve, in particular the bears and the phoenixes had been winning moves,
really providing the opportunity to confront all or almost all players and not just the usual players ultra organized and with time available without limits.

But most of all, I think you should have presented it better right away by matching it to the current conditions as a performance.

It doesn't matter, I am 1 , all the others remain and, if nothing will change, the absolute certainty of meeting with the cities all blue,
like town of "Borg" if we talk in star trek way haha
because for reasons of space the magic houses and workshops will be indispensable and all the rest will be manufactures with zero culture.
without .. goodbye great performance.

if that was the goal ... mission accomplished.
regards

ps
if you force me to use the flowery wizard at least make sure that i built the mercenary field and not only unlocked the technology ...

 

[Yogi Dave]

These post seem to show a naive understanding of how fellowship actually work in the game, which I find to be sad.

I'm sorry, that line seems a bit harsh to me. It's just the frustration. @Marindor and @Konys, you have mentioned the 6 provs, 6 rounds enough times that it's beginning to sound like a litany. We know that gets 40k. We've mentioned other more realistic ways to get the 40k points and we've pointed out the flaws in your logic, but you come back with it again.

So, we are to do less provs, but more rounds and be sure to always have 25 members in the FS who don't go on vacation, get sick or have other time constraints in their lives which might prevent them from getting their 1600. This is a game with comradery as an integral aspect of it. It isn't a job where you have to show up every 16 or so hours to keep from letting your team down.

Then there are all the other aspects of why we do the tourneys that you aren't even addressing that the change affects, such as getting needed relics, kp and so so much more that there are now 16 pages in this thread which is only 2 days old. It's not just the 10th chest.

 

[Deleted User - 86059]

@Yogi Dave I accept your apology and know that you are a good forum orator so you are forgiven for your slide. But please everyone remember that @Marindor and @Konys plus all the other mods do this because of our love of the game. We are all here to bridge the gap and try to make as much help as we all can. We also to try and understand each side and give the other sides perspective without anger or upset. And know we care about your feelings and fervour for Elvenar as much as we all do because we are players as well

 

[LOKINHO]

Hello everyone, I come from the Spanish server. I would like to give my opinion regarding everything read, seen and played in this new tournament, and the disaster that is coming over not quickly changing everything ...

1.- Someone explains to me, who can have the brilliant idea of, for example, "raising the difficulty of the tournament" depending on the expansions you have ??? So does the company expect a player to buy diamonds? FULLY ABSURD.
Players will stop buying diamonds (dedicated to expansions which is what is most needed in the city always, space), with which, the company LOSES and the player LOSES.

2.- Raise the level of difficulty in a tournament, depending on the levels of the wonders you have? Another nonsense !!!! The players who have kept this game for more than 4-5 years, are going to leave it instantly, they are the ones with the most levels of wonders, and if you make it difficult for them to play a tournament as they were doing now, taking away the option to win between 400-500 kp each week, they will not hesitate to leave and abandon.
Summarizing point 1 and 2, you have made two changes in the tournament, complicating the lives of the players who have invested the most here and who spend the most time here (I am talking about those who make 30-40-50 provinces each tournament and they like it !! ) Now they won't be able to.

3.- Making the tournament difficult, as you progress in the provinces as it was before, does it make sense, as you have put it now, are you crazy? it's a joke?? It cannot make less sense ... nobody will be able to complete 20 provinces with 5 stars ... it is impossible !!! Maybe yes, once every year !!!! If the idea is to implement 9 extra chests, the idea should be to facilitate the tournament, and not the opposite !!!!

4.- Hindering the tournament as you advance in stars is fine, but the same as before or similar, but not this exaggeration that you have done !! We return to the same thing, you will make the players leave the game for not being able to enjoy something where they obtained many benefits dedicating a lot of time and effort ... so now ... what will they have left? get bored...

5.- Any movement made by someone, must have an end, if you make a change in order to improve, can you explain to me how on earth you make a change like this? I mean, how can you make a change where the only good thing is to say, that there is only 1 combat !! ??? It is the only thing that was asked of you, to drop from 4 bouts to 1, to make it more agile, simple and fast !!! In this way many more will participate ... but of course, if you start playing more things and screw up like this ... everything goes down the drain.

6.- Conclusion: When a company changes something for the good, it cannot screw it up like this, it is supposed that there are people after study, with studies, who know what they are doing, and who test the idea before implementing it in beta ... seriously nobody pulled numbers ?? nobody realized that this was very expensive both negotiating and battling ?? either opening many provinces, or making many stars? Little geniuses ...

If I were the owner, they won't charge in 1 year to make a horror like this.
When you have an idea, and it is good, and you bet on it, you have to be serious, structure it well, implement it well, and with the "homework duties", and not come here to beta, to tell you that this it's a bad joke !!! Beta is to try new things? Yes, but to test if there are errors, bugs or this kind of thing ... not for us to get the colors with calculations, numbers in hand, sampling of battles and losses, and an infinite number of complaints for not knowing how to do your job well job. Which seems embarrassing and unfortunate, I expected more from INNOGAMES ...

Having said all this, I end up saying that, if the idea is to reduce the number of fights, OK that's great, but maintaining the level and system of before !! Without putting anything new as you have done. If the idea is to add 9 more chests, it will be necessary to see that it is viable and that it can be achieved, and not put an impossible one !!

With data in hand, adding the top 25 right now, in this tournament, they add about 130k points ... the tournament now, it's 40k from before + 126k for the new chests = 166k ... NOT THE TOP 25 OF THE TOURNAMENT I WOULD GET TO GET THIS !! Doesn't it seem embarrassing to create something like that? Seriously, it's unfortunate ...

 

[DeletedUser1657]

One thing with this change that I am liking more and more is the difficulty mechanic, I just think it needs tweaking in respect to where it ramps up. Currently the main difference between the big hitters is time to grind and provinces scouted. There is no skill in that, this change on the surface would appear to bring skill into play by having a difficulty reaching up higher than we currently experience. So eventually skill (yes or ) will set players apart.Skill would include temp buildings, boosters, wonders etc.

Personally the point at which this start to ramp up should be around the 40+ mark, somewhat arbitrary and one could math a good place for this. If we were to find province from 40+ on were into the 1.6 and harder mark I think it would be a reasonable compromise to where things are at currently. Last major tournament change people really hurt on the 1.8 difficulty and we have several new boosters since then so depending on how many a person has those boosters will still help people push into the ever increasing hard zones.

Moving the peak of difficulty down close to 40+ or 50ish allows the keen player to still get a reasonable amount of tournament and increase the scale and flexibility of variety within a fellowship that allows fellowships to work. This still caps the amount which looks like it will happen anyway but is a compromise on where the cap should be.

I still think the random troop combination could also do with some tweak but will consider/experiment with it more before adding more in that aspect. My main concern with it is randomness of luck between players and the harm it causes new players.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I still think the random troop combination could also do with some tweak but will consider/experiment with it more before adding more in that aspect. My main concern with it is randomness of luck between players and the harm it causes new players.

That is something I have been thinking about. I have completed three stars in all eight elixir provinces I have open. I have fought every one of those and almost exclusively have used heavy melee and heavy ranged. Out of those 24 fights, I used light melee, light ranged and mage maybe a couple of times each. so the vast majority of my fights are still for the same troops I am using on Live this week.

 

[Deleted User - 86438]

Personally the point at which this start to ramp up should be around the 40+ mark, somewhat arbitrary and one could math a good place for this.

I think another important thing to consider is that players want to feel power growth. If the difficulty point of "too hard to do without any external buffs" is set appropriately for casual users to achieve 1600 points in 4 rounds (or thereabout) and the scaling based on AW levels were removed (or greatly reduced from the impact it has in the spire formula), it would mean that players get the satisfaction of moving one more province ahead after getting those couple new levels. This is a great carrot-on-a-stick situation where newer players can get used to the tournament easily (and won't have more provinces than they should be able to do for the first ~4 chapters anyways) while keeping the incentive to build and level wonders throughout the game both to increase their score and the lucrative KP from going down instead of across.

A player that is more interested in progression than tournament ranking can skip wonders and still be able to contribute to a fellowship reasonably, while a player, regardless of chapter, that wants to push harder in the tournament can do so by slowing down progression and increasing their wonders without a concern that they're going to hit a point where they are making the squad sizes too high to handle and working against themselves.

Temp buildings, phoenix (and to a lesser extent squad instants or time instants in barracks) would continue to be a way to push past your normal boundary a little each week if used consistently or for a big push on a week if that's what your fellowship does.

 

[DeletedUser3039]

When I hear that it was difficult for a player to score 1600 in the old system it makes me smile. In Chapter 3, you can already dial 1600(maybe earlier), and the further you move through the chapters, the easier and faster(in time) it is to do it. And if YOU don't do this, then you should think maybe you are doing something wrong in this game. And maybe you just don't need it.

About new changes
+/- Reduction in the cost of redemption. But the number of orcs and mana is insane even at 1*
+/- Reduce clicks to 1. But it is very conditional, because the losses will be greater. Perhaps it makes sense for a shorter time
+/- 9 bonus chests. Although the rewards are not worth paying attention to
Everything else is some kind of joke. We already have a spire, there is no need to make a second one. Do not punish players for pumping AW, buying extensions, or just playing longer than others(not premium extensions). If such tournaments come to live servers - well, the world is full of games that I can spend my time and MONEY on.