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Discussion Upcoming Tournament Changes (pre-release)

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DeletedUser3289

Guest
At least we finally get the real reason why they removed some of the guest race goods from some optional Squad size techs. Not all of them, so it's a bit anger inducing that they've removed all of the downsides to optional SS techs, but left several that con only be taken now by rebuilding guest race portals and getting them high enough to store enough goods to even be able to do it, and you can't do it with Portal Profits, because those won't produce goods from earlier chapters. (and then Amuni, where we'll need to produce 130,000 grave goods and 3000 traps, which I'm never going to do, so can expect to continue forever to be at a disadvantage in my province encounters while gaining nothing in return.

Brilliant way to treat players. I hope it makes you lots and lots of money.
Not just province encounters, the free troops from AWs is proportional to your squad size (both optional and mandatory)
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
but left several that con only be taken now by rebuilding guest race portals and getting them high enough to store enough goods to even be able to do it, and you can't do it with Portal Profits, because those won't produce goods from earlier chapters. (and then Amuni, where we'll need to produce 130,000 grave goods and 3000 traps
I thought everyone who was smart enough to skip SSU techs was also smart enough to prepare enough GR goods to research them when those tech would become useful...
1594493653793.png
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I thought everyone who was smart enough to skip SSU techs was also smart enough to prepare enough GR goods to research them when those tech would become useful...

I did for all, but noticed I made an error at the amuni, it's the only one I seem to have forgotten to prepare. tho the influence of 1 SS won't be that severe directly, it wont do that much harm to revisit and fix that in a later stage, tho I expect them to change those reseaches anyway because of this change.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Chapters are already slowed down by sentient goods and not capped GR resources

Not really, you could brute force yourself trough the sentient parts with time boosters and just spamming sentient factories, and the last chapter in particular has no sentient issues at all, since there is more time between the researches because of the much bigger KP requirment.
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
Those who actually play on Beta and want to contribute to figuring out the tournament formula can start collecting data on new squad sizes. This would be vs the same factors that are in play for the Spire (I'd be surprised if those are different), so that means # of mandatory techs activated, total number of AWs, regular and premium expansions and max relic boost for small cities. Also, progression of squad sizes through provinces and stars.
Thanks.
 

DeletedUser332

Guest
Oh, but I do like the massive reduction in clicking! The other changes I won't be able to comment on until I'm able to play with them, but it sounds like, for better or worse, a lot of mechanics in the Spire's design are now being applied to the Tournaments as well. I'm not going to complain if this means I don't make it as far in the Tournament now, because 1) I'm clicking far less and 2) it's gonna affect everybody, not just me.

Yay for less clicking!
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@Karvest Not everyone. I bet there are large groups of players who don't have resources for the optional SS upgrades. Unfortunatelly I didn't bother to save resources for half the chapters, so building half settlements again awaits for me (if the requirements are not changed like for the latest chapters).

@qaccy It doesn't affect everybody the same. The better you currently do in tournaments, the harder you will be hit (and greater nerf in rewards for you).
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Not really, you could brute force yourself trough the sentient parts with time boosters and just spamming sentient factories,
Only if you have big enough stash of seeds => have leveled AW to reduce decay, which is useless for all other situations => have harder spire/tournaments.
Not sure that even maxed out seeds decay reduction would be enough to burn through ch15 via time instants, which also have other uses. Especially if you was not accumulating all these for half a year between chapters, but trying to catch up.
 

Brummbaer

Well-Known Member
I have check the ideas, we are the responseable persons for this huge change.
It was the request of the community
Now we have what the majority wanted :mad:

BTW: I have voted : NO

1594499063722.png
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Only if you have big enough stash of seeds => have leveled AW to reduce decay, which is useless for all other situations => have harder spire/tournaments.
Not sure that even maxed out seeds decay reduction would be enough to burn through ch15 via time instants, which also have other uses. Especially if you was not accumulating all these for half a year between chapters, but trying to catch up.

Event buildings, those peope place a lot of seed producing event buildings to compensate, it ain't great but it does work.
 

PrimroseSylvia

Well-Known Member
I thought everyone who was smart enough to skip SSU techs was also smart enough to prepare enough GR goods to research them when those tech would become useful...
Well. they did this for expansion research, can do the same (finger crossed) with SS ones

replaced the needed settlement resources for the city expansion technologies in Chapter 15 with scrolls, so that player who have skipped these optional technologies can still unlock them when they are playing in later chapters.
 

Skillpowers

Well-Known Member
im a new player since januari and from what i can say i don't like to fight in the spire because if i fight with my troops and i loose it takes a while to get all my troops back (i took all group sizes) , the tournement is more easy since it has 4 battles per province so i don't lose that much when i loose a fight, and if i can't win then i can negotiate , hower the amount of items i must pay is pretty high in my opinion because of my group size , would be better of for newer players as myself if the cost of suplies would be 50% lowered.



The one thing i take away from watching behind the scenes video is that i agree that when a tourmenent happens alot of the items from that tournement are hard to get. so it would be indeed nicer if the items to negotiate would be random so u need all the Tier items (more balance).

i also think its unfair that you get punished for city expension (same as in spire) , isn't it the point for the makers to make money from premium expensions , but yet when players do that they will get punished for it in other game parts.... , also ancient wonders are made to help urself with boost for fighting and other stuff and yet you will get punished for it if you do it?




here is my take away that needs to change in the tourment.

-Keep the 4 encounters (because if you loose a fight you lose 25% only of ur army basicly).
-Make the Negiotate cheaper
-Make the Negiotate items more random so its more helpful for the market that u need all the Tier Items
-The extra chests are a nice edition
-Its good that it will no longer calqulate on the squad size since you get punished if you unluck everyting
-Don't punish for premium expension and Ancient Wonders.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Event buildings, those peope place a lot of seed producing event buildings to compensate, it ain't great but it does work.
Best regular seeds-producing event building (not from set) gives you 10.42seeds/cell/hour (ch15). To start one T6 3h production you need 2100 seeds = 70 cells occupied by these buildings working for the same 3h, how it can help with burning through sentient requirements with instants?.. The only thing that can actually help with it is storm phoenix...
 
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DeletedUser3314

Guest
Just getting out of retirement to leave a comment (what a hassle to first have to play through tutorial before being able to register email and get on forum :():
Don't be so secretive about things, Inno, give us the formulas (both fight & negotiate) upfront so we can comment on it and improve upon it ! ;)Because it looks like the mistakes that where made in the Spire of Eternity (fight) formula are made again. :oops:
Expansions never should have made it into that formula. Inno should be grateful when players wants to pay for them instead of penalizing them.
If it concerns fighting then squad size definitely should be in the fight formula somehow, but making it easier the more you research, not more difficult (see below comment from CW).
Same can be said about AWs, some of them have nothing to do with fighting but are still used in the fight formula.

...
3. enemy type more random...
we want SIMPLE...some player do not find their SIMPLE soldier pattern.
SIMPLE means less time <--which is the most important for all player
we do not want to spend un-necessary time to handle
we have our city building, 5 min, 15 mins.....etc collection to handle
we also playing various game worlds with beta world
Having find our "soldier pattern" to handle most provinces of a type of tournament
we just set it to go with "auto fight"

Inno , now, pull our leg... every time, we need to study enemy soldier type and select proper soldier
carry out manual fight, wasting our time.....
WE DO NOT HAVE TIME ...it make tournament harder and harder
Those are the same arguments I made a long, long time ago when they introduced Mercenary Camp & Training Grounds and consequently more different troops. I guess they never heard of K.I.S.S. :rolleyes:

...
Problem 1, exponential curves:
1.00415^M this is an exponential curve, this means to keep the game up to par, everything in the game needs to have an exponential curve is wel.
Because of this the number will rise faster and faster up as the game progresses.
Those curves look like this:
View attachment 7520
And we already have entered the steep part of this curve which means it will accelerate upwards faster and faster.
...
That curve should look more like this, logarithmic instead of an exponential growth:
1594502268538.png

Should have used n√1.00415 (nth root) instead of 1.00415^n (nth power) (quoting MinMax formula).

What's next ? Change how to do normal provinces ? :(
 

Knoggaknorr

New Member
I don't understand, why they don't implement the same boosted good+ system for tournaments as they have with event buildings. So for marble it is your boosted good for steel it is boosted good+1 etc.
Would that not remove the market strain since everyone has diffrent boosted goods and thus has to trade diffrently and also still keep the planing and strategy that you can do as of right now?

With random tournament encounter and goods it takes away of the strategy and planing, as many stated before, wich is basically all a building game is tbh.

The problem with the scaling i see as well is.. if you make it partially dependant on city expansions then you punish casual players... i don't know many casual players with good city layout. An inefficient layout is a huge diffrence in how many resources and units you get per hour. And i really don't see a good way to balance around this issue since i don't think the approach "just git gud" is correct in this instance.

Otherwise with a balance around "you get more +% than difficulty" i think this system will favor high end players although it heavily depends on the new "later provinces are harder" thing... but in theory this is a positive exponential curve with a better scaling than the difficulty. (at least that is how math checks out if you increase one thing for 10% and another for 5%)
 

Deleted User - 86438

Guest
I agree that ramping up based on expansions creates a bad experience for players (both premium expansions and even optional expansions in the research tree).

The rewards of the tournament already scale better with smaller cities, as one PoP, MM, EE, RR, or Blueprint has more overall impact on a city with less total workshops, manufactories, culture buildings, event buildings or magic buildings respectively.

As mentioned early in the thread, the optimal city for spire and tournaments (the largest recurring goals in the game) becomes to not take any optional expansions and obviously not buy any for diamonds. It's understandable that it exists as a choice on whether to take those optional techs to make a larger city with more buildings or leave them and be more lean / efficient, but it doesn't feel good in a game where advancing and growing your city is the primary advancement.

Scaling based on AW levels also poses a problem in that it's more negative feedback for advancing your city. For wonders that provide troop bonuses (damage bonus, health bonus, free troops, training size/speed) it's easy enough for a player that plans on primarily fighting in tournaments and the spire to justify. Similarly for those that provide goods bonuses if a player plans to primarily cater. The problem lies when a player is military-centric and therefore would increase their difficulty by adding or leveling up a Mountain Halls, for example.

As for correlating with number of researches completed; that makes more sense. The rewards scale well with progression through the chapters. PoP, MM, EE values are percentage of a single building (which are multipliers on higher numbers in higher chapters). RR and Blueprints are only useful to those who are progressing their cities through the chapters as well.

Scaling on expansions and AW levels both penalize trying to play a balanced city and make it more effective to focus heavily on either military or goods production (to conserve space and limit the wonders needed).

If the difficulty were to scale only with progress through the research tree (based on required researches completed) there would no longer be breakpoints where it is beneficial to pause progress for the sake of an easier time in the tournament or spire. With these changes, those breakpoints would move from "I don't want to take this next SSU" to "I don't want to take this next City Expansion" until I can comfortably plow through the next chapter to get the power upgrades I need to offset it.

Optional squad size upgrades will no longer have any negative effect other than the opportunity cost of the KP and activation), only positive - easier time in province battles and more troops from instants and wonders. The same should be true for optional (and diamond-purchased) city expansions.

As for wonders, it seems that they are the secondary lever for power beyond progressing through the chapters (and the only real lever once completing progression). Use the scaling of the fight difficulty and/or cost to cater to make it so that doing higher and higher provinces is the reward for having wonders that support your preferred style of play rather than punishing the player for any AW levels that don't directly help with the tournament province. It should never be the case that a player would benefit from not using their KP rather than upgrading an AW.
 

DeletedUser2630

Guest
When my teammates asked me why I was negotiating the tower, I told him that with 435AW I could hardly handle those fights even with a phoenix.

At the same time, they fight it all the way up. Lately, I also have a problem with negotiations. When the tower isn't there, I have full warehouses. Once started, I am able to empty coin stocks with hammers during 4 to 8 negotiations.

How do you think the tournament will go with this? Yes, I may still manage 30 provinces, but I still get more than 600 KP per week from the tournament? Probably hard, isn't it?

For those who purposefully level the wonders across the board to have as many seeds as possible, the formula is the most bad than for people who use the same amount of KP for fewer levels at a higher level.

I definitely feel damaged by leveling all the wonders and not just the ones that will help me in battle.
And now should I be just as damaged in the tournament? Why don't you just count the wonders that help in the tournament? In the fight only those who help the fighting, and in the negotiation only those who help the raw materials?

Why do you count all the wonders? What does the Library help me with in the tournament? Or thermal baths? Does it make me cheaper here? Probably not :)
 
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