Battling versus catering in Scrolls Encounter

[Lovec Krys]

@Soleil What does have culture common with this? (or maybe you're trying to say, it's not logical)

 

[Heymrdiedier]

The number of enemies you face in the tournament has a direct relation to your SS.
If you double your squad size, so do they.
This means that instead of losing 20 troops, you'd lose 40.
Or instead of paying 200 planks you pay 400

wouldnt you still loose 20 troops? except your troops are now double the size so the total units lost are double?

 

[DeletedUser]

@Lovec Krys I was just being silly. All the stuff that went into calculating a tournament squad and negotiating costs! Still a mystery to me.

 

[DeletedUser]

1 province left, shew. Where is that chapter 2 battle school? I think I can safely say, I am terrible at battling.

 

[SoggyShorts]

wouldnt you still loose 20 troops? except your troops are now double the size so the total units lost are double?

No.
You lose the same %, but since you bring twice as many, you would lose double the number.

It's easier to picture if you exagerate:
Fight with 1,000 vs 1,000
Lose 20%
Need to retrain 200
Or
Fight with 1,000,000 vs 1,000,000
Lose 20%
Need to retrain 200,000

 

[SoggyShorts]

@Soleil
The reason that the system seems stupid is because it's kinda stupid.
Once upon a time it was based on the number of provinces that you cleared, but then for whatever reason the devs wanted it based on technology progress, but instead of a huge Spike every time you started a new chapter they went with squad size upgrades as those are generally spread out a bit through the chapters. The fact that taking extra squad size upgrades is objectively worse because tournaments are far more frequent was simply something that devs did not consider.

 

[Karvest]

It was not number of provinces cleared, but number of provinces scooted and AS learnt at the moment of scouting of particular province (same as for openworld province). This caused some silly side effects like if your scooting policy is not circular but something else like "scoot boosted goods first" or "open active neighbors first" - you can end up with 3 tournament province costs much more (say, x100 times) than 5 (or 3 province from the different tourney).

 

[Heymrdiedier]

No.
You lose the same %, but since you bring twice as many, you would lose double the number.

It's easier to picture if you exagerate:
Fight with 1,000 vs 1,000
Lose 20%
Need to retrain 200
Or
Fight with 1,000,000 vs 1,000,000
Lose 20%
Need to retrain 200,000

i still think its yes, in example 1, 1000 units is 5 troops (200 a troop), you loose 20%, that means 1 troops = 200 units.
in example 2, you still fight with 5 troops (200.000 a troop), you loose 20%, still meaning 1 troop = 200.000 units

So in both cases you loose 1 troop.
like you said it first, it wouldnt make sense, example 2 is 1000 times as big in units as example 1, which would mean 1000 times 20% meaning loosing 20000% or 200 troops wich isnt possible since you can only enter 5 troops...

So i still think the amount of troops lost is still the same, but the number of units lost is a lot greater. and bigger troopsize means you need longer to refill those troops in your barracks, since barracks arent based on your troopsize.
Which i think would possibly be a way to fix the unbalance in SS researches, just make barracks work compared to SS.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Maybe it's a language issue.

By "Troops" I meant individual units
500 troops = 500 archers

Not 500 squads.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

Maybe it's a language issue.

By "Troops" I meant individual units
500 troops = 500 archers

Not 500 squads.

aah you are exactly right, in dutch they translated squadsize to troopsize (troepomvang). so for me a troop means a squad

 

[CrazyWizard]

5+ stars in tournaments are usually closed by catering except perfect enemy setups and/or expiring military buildings placed.
And even with 4 opened tournament provinces you can get 1080 points, which is more than our (10chests) FS tourney minimum.

On the scolls tournaments you are right. But on most tournaments I only cater the very high provinces about 50% to save troups. And in general that's province 25 and higher. There I cherrypick my matches to combat and cater the rest.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

On the scolls tournaments you are right. But on most tournaments I only cater the very high provinces about 50% to save troups. And in general that's province 25 and higher. There I cherrypick my matches to combat and cater the rest.

I am also not catering that much, doing it a bit like Crazywizard (tho i think i even cater less and accept heavy losses)
I am handicapped in my squadsize since i was allready maxed out when they introduced the squadsize change. Im more then willing to offer to spend diamonds to let me unresearch these. Please consider doing that, since you dindt tackle the unfairness of the system yet after all this time (2 years).

Im not sure how else i can fix the unfair SS thing for me instead of starting all over (which in fact im also allready doing)

 

[DeletedUser]

Yeah, the calculations don’t make any sense to me, my squad size shouldn’t be in any calculation for negotiating costs. I’m also getting confused by all of these numbers.

It’s hard for me to tell if I’m crap at battling or if I’m doing okay. I feel like I’m doing really bad, but maybe I’m not. What I finished yesterday was my trek to chapter 3 woot! Was even able to build and upgrade my first wonder! So exciting! Come look!

Okay back to the serious stuff:

I completed 94 encounters, 72 of the encounters I battled, the remaining I catered. No failed encounters My poor sword dancers I sometimes blocked them by my own units, and they became cannon fodder. 5 squads can be a pain for me sometimes. Of course, in at least one, I picked the wrong units.

I don’t want to put up here how many units I lost, too embarrassed if it’s really bad. But if someone could put a few estimates of how many single units one would expect to lose in battling 72 encounters, it would help me greatly in deciding if I should even do tournaments at a later time because of my blue maps and how having a larger squad size would impact me.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I don’t want to put up here how many units I lost, too embarrassed if it’s really bad. But if someone could put a few estimates of how many single units one would expect to lose in battling 72 encounters, it would help me greatly in deciding if I should even do tournaments at a later time because of my blue maps and how having a larger squad size would impact me.

Unfortunately that's kind of impossible since we don't know what your squad size was compared to the enemies, also I don't believe you have five troop types unlocked yet which makes things harder.
Basically
if you never lost a fight then you did fine and
if you had more than half your troops remaining at the end of a fight you did well
if you lost less than 1 full stack in a fight you did great.

 

[DeletedUser]

Are you saying if I only lost 1 full stack overall?

Or if I lost less then 1 stack per encounter? In 2 or 3 encounters, I lost 1 full stack, my poor swords that became cannon fodder. Other than that, I don’t recall any encounter where I lost 50% of my units. Only wrote down what I started with and what I ended with. By encounter, didn’t write down what the enemy size was compared to mine, they ranged from 69/30 to 69/84 the last few were treant heavy and treants and the last land expansion, are the last research item in chapter 2. Didn’t wait to produce a bunch of treants. 12 squads of treants got me through 72 encounters. Powerful little buggers. “I am Groot”!

What I don’t understand about tournaments and these calculations, is if you’re bringing in a larger squad, shouldn’t you have less losses over more of the battles? Instead of 20% losses in your example, maybe it’s 5% because it’s a larger squad? Or right from the get go in the first level of the tournament, the enemy units equals yours because of the larger squad size? Then once it gets too great, you just stop instead of losing more units and don't cater because of the now larger catering fee?

The gems tournament starts today, I'll check it but it might not be a good comparison just starting chapter 3.

 

[SoggyShorts]

What I don’t understand about tournaments and these calculations, is if you’re bringing in a larger squad, shouldn’t you have less losses over more of the battles? Instead of 20% losses in your example, maybe it’s 5% because it’s a larger squad? Or right from the get go in the first level of the tournament, the enemy units equals yours because of the larger squad size?

Why would losses go down? Think about it in real life
If 100 guys fought 100 dudes and won while taking 20 losses, what would be the result in a 1,000 v 1,000? All else being equal, 200 would die.

Honestly other than giving the exact same examples we've already given, I'm not sure how else we can eplain this to you..

• The number of troops you face is based on the number of troops you bring.
• When you increase your squad size you bring more troops.
• So when you increase your squad size the enemy brings more troops.
• Bigger battles means more dead guys on both sides.

You said you did some fights where you lost a stack. For you a stack is 69.
After you take a bunch more SS tech upgrades, your stacks will be 690.
Then when you do the exact same fight you will lose 1 stack again, but that will mean 690 dead guys to replace.
If you magically increased your SS to 69,000,000, then did the fight, you'd lose 69,000,000.

 

[DeletedUser]

I’m sorry @SoggyShorts, I don’t mean to be difficult on this. Truly, I don’t recall exactly how tournaments were set up, but the first level of the tournament, it was never 69 against 69 (using my squad size) it might be like that on the 5th or 6th province and the 3rd star and a couple of randoms in between. But it never started with my squad size being the same exact size as the enemy.

If it’s like this now from the moment you open up your first province, I understand. That’s what I was going to check today.

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

I’m sorry @SoggyShorts, I don’t mean to be difficult on this. Truly, I don’t recall exactly how tournaments were set up, but the first level of the tournament, it was never 69 against 69 (using my squad size) it might be like that on the 5th or 6th province and the 3rd star and a couple of randoms in between. But it never started with my squad size being the same exact size as the enemy.

If it’s like this now from the moment you open up your first province, I understand. That’s what I was going to check today.

Yes, in the first round of the tournament your squad size is bigger than the enemy's. The exact formula for calculating your tournament squad size was already provided to you earlier, so I'll just quote it:

<your tournament SS> = <your normal SS> * 0.05 * <tournament province number>.
<tournament enemy SS> = <your tournament SS> * (0.70 + 0.15 * star)
tournament catering cost depends on tournament enemy SS, distribution of this cost between money/supplies/t1/t2/t3/orcs depends on your normal SS.

So, to make things simple. let's say your normal squad size is 1000. In the first tournament province your squad size will be:
1000 * 0.05 * 1 = 50

Enemy squad size will be:
Round 1 (0 stars): 50 * (0.70 + 0.15*0) = 50 * 0.7 = 35
Round 2 (1 star): 50 * (0.70 + 0.15*1) = 50 * 0.85 = 42.5 (so 42 or 43 - I'm not sure if it is rounded up or down)
Round 3 (2 stars): 50 * (0.70 + 0.15*2) = 50 * 1 = 50 <<<<<This is when enemy squad size is equal to yours
Round 4 (3 stars): 50 * (0.70 + 0.15*3) = 50 * 1.15 = 57.5 <<<<<<<<< Starting here the enemy has a numerical advantage
Round 5 (4 stars): 50 * (0.70 + 0.15*4) = 50 * 1.30 = 65
Round 6 (5 stars): 50 * (0.70 + 0.15*5) = 50 * 1.45 = 72.5

Now imagine that you increase your squad size from 1000 to 2000. ALL of the above numbers get doubled as a result:
In the first tournament province your squad size will be:
2000 * 0.05 * 1 = 100

Enemy squad size will be:
Round 1 (0 stars): 100 * (0.70 + 0.15*0) = 100 * 0.7 = 70
Round 2 (1 star): 100 * (0.70 + 0.15*1) = 100 * 0.85 = 85
Round 3 (2 stars): 100 * (0.70 + 0.15*2) = 100 * 1 = 100 <<<<<This is when enemy squad size is equal to yours
Round 4 (3 stars): 100 * (0.70 + 0.15*3) = 100 * 1.15 = 115 <<<<<<<<< Starting here the enemy has a numerical advantage
Round 5 (4 stars): 100 * (0.70 + 0.15*4) = 100 * 1.30 = 130
Round 6 (5 stars): 100 * (0.70 + 0.15*5) = 100 * 1.45 = 145


If your squad size is 50 and you lose 60% of it, your actual losses in absolute numbers are 30.
If your squad size is 100 and you lose 60% of it, your actual losses in absolute numbers are 60 - twice as many.

Due to the above it is better to have smaller squads, as it is easier to replace 30 units than it is to replace 60 units.

 

[DeletedUser]

Okay, don't get mad at me for this, isn't it all relative though. At the point you have a bigger army with the same relative losses you'll have wonders (and the new one that gives you extra units from the barracks), event buildings and extra stuffs to make up that difference?

And I'm pretty sure my units are stronger because I have blue maps

 

[Karvest]

@shadowblack stars in my formula are 1-6, not 0-5, equal amount of troops are on round (= star) 2